Sarah Cottrell: Hi, and welcome to The Former Lawyer Podcast. I’m your host, Sarah Cottrell. I practiced law for ten years, and now I help unhappy lawyers ditch their soul-sucking jobs. On this show, I share advice and strategies for aspiring former lawyers, and interviews with former lawyers who’ve left the law behind, to find careers and lives that they love.

If you're a lawyer who's worked with a career coach before, and came out of that process even more confused about what it is that you should do, I want to talk to you today. This is something that happens quite a bit. I have worked with many lawyers who, were interested in leaving law, and worked with a career coach. And even if the experience was good, sort of left that experience with maybe, more information about themselves, but even less idea of what it is that they should actually do. And I want to talk about that today. I want to talk about why that is, in my view, and some of the things that you should look for, when you're thinking about a career coach. And what to think about, if you're someone who had this experience and now feels like, even more confused.

So, there are two main reasons that I've observed, that tend to be in play, if someone has worked with a career coach before, and walked away, feeling more confused than they did when they first started. Or, if not more confused, just like, they have more information, but they don't ultimately have a plan in terms of where to go. Or, one of two things, generally, is the case. One is that, often, people and coaches, tend to focus a lot on assessments. Now, as I've talked on the podcast before, I use a number of Assessments with my clients. I use the Clifton Strengths assessment. I use in Enneagram assessment. I use the Via. And then I use some other things like, another values exercise. I have people do a likes and dislikes exercise, which is just like, something I made up myself. And various other things. And, part of why I use a bunch of different assessments is that, it can be really easy as lawyers in particular to like lock in on results of anyone assessment and be like “This must be the answer. And, this, if I figure out how to, like, satisfy what this is saying about, what this says about me then, like, I will figure it out.” Right? Like, this is the answer. And I don't believe there is, one answer. And I also think that it, any given tool has potential flaws, right? So like, I think it is more helpful to, debrief, be able to debrief, any assessment that you go through and ultimately, like, figure out how that translates into potential options. And here's the thing in my view.

The like, figuring out who you are, and like, the information about yourself is extremely helpful. Especially when we're talking about values. I do not think you can skip it. In fact, I think if you do not do values work, as part of your overall sort of figuring out what you want to do? That often can explain part of why things feel so confusing. But what happens to people often, is they get to the end of the process of taking assessments and they feel like they should have an answer. And they don't. But the reason you don't have an answer is because the assessments are not telling you what to do, they're just telling you information about yourself. And so, a big part, a huge part for me, as the work that I'm doing with clients is, helping them think about okay, what are the options that I'm interested in? Like what whatever those are, all the various things, that exist in the world that I could potentially do, for work, what are some options that might be good fits for me, based on these the results of the assessments. And then how do I go out, and get information about those things, to figure out whether or not any of them is something that I want to pursue? And, how do I take the information that I get from those informational interviews, and continue to tweak it so I can continue to do helpful information interviews with new people? Or where I'm looking for new information, that ultimately allows me to refine, and iterate it down to the point where, I actually do have one or two career types, or roles, or a field, or whatever, that I'm targeting, as opposed to just, any possible thing.

That process, that informational interview process, the taking your, the information that you know, now know, about yourself for an assessment, and being able to compare it to potential options, and assess like, is this a good match? If so, why? If not, why? And what does that mean about what I should potentially look for, who I should talk to next? And this part of the process, this part of the informational interview process. That piece of it, is a key piece of it. And I want to be clear, this is not like, my own special insight. There are lots of career coaches that will talk about this. There are lots of books that will talk about this. I think that, what often happens for people, when they work with a career coach. Especially if they work with someone who's not a lawyer, because that person doesn't necessarily, fully understand the ways in which our profession discourages us for asking questions that we don't have the answers to. Often I find, the reason that they are struggling is, that they got to the end of the assessment part, and they didn't have support in the next part. Which is a part I just talked about, which is the actually figuring out like, what does this information mean and how does it translate into roles, that I can pursue?

So for you, if you're thinking about working with a career coach, I think it's a, really helpful to understand not just what they use, in terms of tools and assessments, but also what they do to help you take that information, and figure out what it means for you. Which brings me to the other thing that is often a problem, for people who come to me, when they are more lost after they've worked with a career coach, before, then they were, before they even work with the person. The other thing that I think people often run into is, and I completely understand this. Because I know the impulse, and the impulse is. I want someone to be able to look at my resume, my assessment, and I want them to be able to tell me what I should do. Like, I want them to give me an answer. And like, that that is what, that is what I want. And I understand why you want that. Especially if you are super burned out, and you're going to a toxic job, and you're just like “Get me out of here, like, I need someone who can give me the answer to how I get out of here.”

The problem is that, other people, even a coach who's looking at all of your assessments, and has talked with you, they are still not in a better position than you are to assess if something is really actually a good fit for you. And what I have found is, sometimes people work with coaches who do say like “Oh I can give you an answer.” And often what happens is, the answer is like, not that satisfied for the person. Or is like, not really appealing for the person. It's an answer that makes sense based on their, skills and like, a logical like “Oh I could convince someone to hire me for this type of role.” Which is different from “Do I want to do that role?” And so, often what you have is, people who have worked with someone trying to figure out what role they want to do, and the coach that they selected is someone who is going to tell them, what role fits based on there work history. Which almost always is a mismatch, because it almost always is closer to the kind of work that you've been doing, that you don't actually like, which is why you're working with a career coach, than you want it to be.

It also, depending on the process, it often means that, you, in that process, don't really have the opportunity to do, sort of, what I talked about before this. Which is, debriefing on assessments, and then figuring out for yourself like, how, like, what are the things that I want to think about pursuing? How do they match up to the things that I know to be true about myself? And how do I refine that process and information to ultimately identify specific options? There is like huge appeal in the idea that someone can just, look at what your information, look at your assessments, and tell you what you should do.

In my view, that's what we did, most of us, when we went to law school. We looked at assessments, or a general understanding of who we were. And we said “Oh, being a lawyer makes sense. It fits.” There are so many more things that you could possibly do, than things that, like, fit, and I'm doing air quotes which you can't see, with your background, resume, skills, and ultimately, with what you're looking for. Something that you're interested in, something that, that really is a match for your personality, for your strengths, for the things that you value. That has to come from you. And anyone who's a career coach who tells you something else? I, respectfully, disagree with that philosophy. Because a career coach can be hugely helpful. They can help you go through this whole process, they can tell you, help you figure out what assessments make sense. And how to think about the results, and what themes come out, and what options you might be interested in, and brainstorm other options, and figure out what questions you need to be asking, and who you should be talking to in like, all of these things. But they actually cannot tell you what feels, like, the right fit. Or what's going to feel like the right fit. Because they are not you. And ultimately, what you want to do, is you want to be working with someone who's going to support you in being able to do that.

Because it's a skill that a lot of us who went to law school simply didn't develop, when we were figuring out we wanted to do with our career. But it's a skill that you can develop. And the great thing is, once you develop that skill, you don't. It doesn't go away, because there's no one, like, answer. Because you are developing a set of skills that you can apply over, and over. It also decreases the anxiety of like “Oh my goodness, I have to like, find the one thing, and I need to pick it. It's going to be the only thing, because if it doesn't work, then like, what do I do?” Well if you go somewhere else, and it is not a perfect fit? That's fine, because you now have the tools to be able to figure out “Okay what about this works? What about this didn't? How can I iterate on this, to go to something that is easy, and even better fit?” And on top of all this, I think there's a third thing that tends to be at issue.

When someone comes to me, and they feel more lost after they've worked with a career coach. And so, are looking for more help, from another career coach, being me, is that for lawyers, so much of the work, and figuring out something else that you want to do, is not even that practical. Like, taking the assessments, and figuring stuff out. Even though that's difficult, even though the information interview process is challenging, and you can feel like you're flailing, and be like “What am I doing?” And. So, I'm not saying that there aren't other things, but a huge part of the work for so many people. Even people who don't expect this to be part of their work, is untangling their identity from their work. Is being able to, walk away from being a lawyer, and not feel like they're walking away from themselves. Because of the fact that, like “Who am I if I'm not a lawyer?” And especially, if you work with a career coach who is not a lawyer, they may not understand the ways in which our profession inculcates feeling, and like reinforces this feeling to an extreme degree. And how deeply rooted this sense of, like, “Who am I? Who am I, if I'm not, I'm not a lawyer?” Who am I, if people don't see me in this particular way? Who am I, if I'm doing something that's not as, quote unquote prestigious.

Like, all these things that come up for people, because they are the things that drove us into law in the first place. And there are things that are reinforced by the profession. And so, that is the third, thing that I think often, sort of, is operating in the background. Even apart from like, the more technical things of like, did you just take assessments? And you didn't really know how to, like, translate that into like, what to do? Or were you just told like “Oh you should do X or Y.” And that wasn't really a fit, so then there wasn't really anywhere to go. And, that was not a great option for you, sort of like, over all of that, is this question of, how much are you grappling with who am I? Who am I, if I'm not a lawyer? What does that mean about me? And is that part of what's holding you back, and making me resist the idea of like, doing something else? And if it is, how do I approach that?

Which, listen, as always on this podcast, this is the part where I'm going to say, please go to therapy. Because if you are thinking about doing something else, this will come up. This will come up. And, if you’re working with a therapist, it will be so much better. Because, you actually can explore, why is my identity so wrapped up in being a lawyer? What is it about that that feels so essential to me, and why? And if that's keeping me from doing things that I actually want to do, how can I approach that and do something different?

Okay, good talk. If you are feeling more lost after working with a career coach, I want you to know that it is not an uncommon experience. Especially for lawyers. I talk to lots of lawyers, even people who I don't ultimately end up working with but who had experiences like this. And these are almost always the reasons why. Thanks so much for listening, I'll talk to you next week.

Thanks so much for listening, I absolutely love getting to share this podcast with you . If you haven’t yet, I invite you to download my free guide, First Steps to Leaving the Law at formerlawyer.com/first until next time. Have a great week.