Sarah Cottrell: Hi, and welcome to The Former Lawyer Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Cottrell. I've practiced law for 10 years and now I help unhappy lawyers ditch their soul-sucking jobs. On this show, I share advice and strategies for aspiring former lawyers and interviews with former lawyers, who have left the law behind, to find careers and lives that they love.

Today I want to talk to you about the former lawyer framework, which is what I call the framework that I use when I work with clients to help them identify what it is that they want to do that isn't practicing law. So look, the reality is that a lot of people come to me and they're like, Sarah, I have no idea what I want to do. And it's interesting, because often people think that in order to work with me, they have to have some sense of what they want to do. But the reality is that the framework that I use, is essentially designed for people who are in that position of like, I have no idea what it is that I want to do. I don't even know what I could do. And so I want to talk about, at a high level, the different stages that people go through, when they're working through the framework, because I think that will be really helpful for those of you who are thinking about, what is it that I can do that is not practicing law?

And no surprise, I've talked about this in the podcast before, but the first thing that I think is really helpful to do when you are going through this process is to reflect back on what it is that brought you to the law in the first place. So often people will tell me, I decided to go to law school and I realized that I did so, because it was a clear path, as opposed to just like a big question mark coming out of undergrad, or because someone told me I was good at arguing when I was seven and that I should be a lawyer, or that it was considered a very stable job that would keep someone financially safe. There are lots of different reasons why people choose to be lawyers, but I think regardless of why you chose to be a lawyer, it's very helpful to understand what was going on. Because here's the thing, unless you identify what was going on, you will probably end up using that same sort of philosophy to identify your next move. And sometimes that's fine, right? Sometimes you like the criteria that you used initially to decide to become a lawyer. But often what happens for people is that they realize, oh, like, the reasons I became a lawyer are not things that I want to carry into my next decision. And unless you sit down and sort of reflect on how you ended up where you ended up, that default operant conditioning is just going to be running in the background. So that's the first thing that I think is really important.

The second thing is getting a good picture of who you are, right? And so the very first piece of that for me always, is getting super clear on what your values are. What are the things that are most important to you? What are the things that are going to make or break whether a job is actually a good fit? Getting clear on your values is so important that I always put it up front, even when people are doing all sorts of different assessments. So I also recommend, in sort of this part of the framework, a personality test of some type. My personal preference is the Enneagram, a strengths assessment, I use Clifton Strengths. I also like for people to think about what they like and what they dislike, because often lawyers think they like something, because they get praised for it, but that's different than actually enjoying the work.

And then also there is a place in sort of this building this whole picture of yourself for looking at your skills, like what skills do you have? But I put that intentionally last as I'm talking about this part of the framework, because it's so easy for lawyers to get hung up on the skills piece first. And I don't think that that serves you well, because ultimately what you're trying to do is you're trying to create a whole matrix of information about yourself that you can then pass potential jobs through and say like, hey, here's what I know about this job. Is it a good fit for me?

Now, a lot of people will go take these assessments and the challenge is that, especially as lawyers, we tend to have this like, okay, I've taken the assessment, so now there must be an answer. And what is the answer? Well, the reality is there is not one answer. And in fact, in many ways, taking these assessments and getting clear on that sort of thing, is much more straightforward than what happens next. And what happens next is, how do I take that information and actually translate it into jobs that I want to apply for, or even jobs that I want to go get more information about? This is the point where people often feel like, oh my gosh, I've made a terrible mistake, because I have all this information, but I don't know what I want to do still and that must mean, you know, paradeable horribles. If you're in that stage, I want to tell you that it's going to be okay and also everyone feels that way.

And the thing that I think is often confusing for people is that when you are moving from this step where you're getting information about yourself into identifying jobs and getting more information about potential jobs, the thing that should drive your interest in potential jobs, is your interest, or what feels interesting. And not what job do I think is a perfect fit for this Clifton strength in my report, or this particular personality trait. Now, I'm not saying that you can't use your personality assessment results, your strengths results, your values, et cetera, to brainstorm potential options. You absolutely should and that's something I do with my clients all the time. Especially now that I've seen a lot of people go through this process, you know, I have the experience of seeing like, oh, people who test this or that way often think about XYZ and, you know, that might be something that you want to think about.

But the brainstorming piece of like, what are some potential jobs that I can look into? That piece ultimately should be driven by things that you are curious about, things that you have maybe that have sort of been hanging out in the back of your mind that you kind of thought like, oh, no, that wouldn't work or whatever. The things that you have genuine interest in. And then what you do is you go, you talk to people who are doing those jobs, because of course, for a lot of us, we have this idea of like what it might be to be a therapist, or to work in higher ed, or to work in legal tech. But the reality of it may not match sort of this image that we have in our head, especially if we don't have a lot of experience directly working in that field. So, your job, once you have a list of potential options to go think about and get more information about, is to go out and get that information.

Well, how do you do that? You literally find people who are willing to talk to you about what their day-to-day is like. Sometimes people will want to go and be like, oh, do you like your job doing XYZ? Which, you can ask someone that, but the reality is they may like it for reasons that, like, have nothing to do with why you might like it. Or they might hate their job, but you might actually like that job, because the reasons that they don't like it are, you know, there's not overlap, in sort of the way the two of you experience that job, right? I think it's really important when you're in this information gathering stage, which is sort of this third stage after reflecting and then like assessing and getting all of your assessments. The exploration stage really needs to be about information gathering. Because ultimately, how do you make a decision about whether you want to be in legal tech, if you don't know what kinds of jobs exist in legal tech, what people are doing in their day-to-day, which ones actually sound interesting to you, which ones you are qualified for, or maybe could be qualified for, if you upscaled in certain areas? Like what you need ultimately is more information. And as you get information about jobs that you're curious about or interested in, you then pass that information through this grid of all the stuff that you know to be true about yourself, based on the various assessments. And that helps you see, is this actually a good fit? Am I being realistic about whether or not this particular job is going to be a good fit for me?

And the thing is that you don't just have this initial exploration phase. You also have what I think of as an iteration phase, a refinement phase, where you're going out and getting this information. And often what happens is people feel like, I'm just going to be getting random information about a bunch of different options. How do I decide where to start? I've talked about this in the podcast before, but the reality is you can start anywhere. You're not going to forget that you might have other things that you're interested in. Ultimately, it's more about going and starting and getting the information. And then what you do, once you're having those conversations, is, you think about, is what I'm learning about this job, does this continue to interest me? Or is this like, oh, I had this idea of what it might be like, but it's actually very different. You are getting information in real time and then determining, who else do I need to talk to? Do I need to talk to more people who are doing this type of job? Or should I think about this other thing that is maybe a little bit different, but that someone mentioned, or that came up, when I was asking if the person who I was talking to had anyone else they would suggest I talk to. It's very organic, and it's also not linear. And that's why the refining and iterating part of the process can feel so confusing to lawyers, because it can feel like I'm not doing this right, because it's not linear. Because we're so used to things being linear, because of the way that our profession works. But it's not. It's just not linear.

And ultimately, as you refine and iterate, you ultimately will identify things that are going to be the right fit for you. And then the final step of the framework is what a lot of us think about as like the primary quote-unquote thing that we need to do, when we're thinking about changing jobs, which is things like revising your resume, revising your LinkedIn, writing cover letters, prepping for interviews, like all these sorts of things, the sort of like nuts and bolts. And listen, I'm not saying that those things aren't important. But also doing that is so much easier when you actually know what it is that you want to be targeting. If you don't know what you want to target, moving straight to resumes and LinkedIn and that sort of thing is going to make you feel crazy, because you're just going to be like, I don't know. how to talk about what I do. And the reason you don't know how to talk about that is because you don't know what sort of audience you're trying to speak to, right? Because there are a million different ways that you can talk about yourself and the work that you have done and the work that you could do. But if you don't know who's going to be listening or reading that communication, it's very hard to know which parts to focus on, how to describe it, et cetera.

This is the framework that I work through with all of my clients. And I can tell you definitively that you can be someone who has absolutely no idea what it is that you want to do. The only thing that you need to know is like, I do not like this job. If that is all you know, that is enough to go through this process and ultimately get to a point where you're able to identify things that actually are a better fit for you. I think the hardest thing about this process is that there is no one answer. And I think that the fact that there is no one answer, can be very scary on the front end. But from my experience, I've actually seen it be very freeing for people, because the reality is that a lot of people come into the process thinking, I have no options and ultimately they realize they actually have a lot of options. And there's really nothing that I love better than that. And ultimately, that's the framework that can help you figure out what it is that you want to do that isn't practicing law.

Now, it's really important. The date that this episode releases is going to be August 24th. And I have a self-paced group program. It's called the Former Lawyer Collaborative. I've been running it for a number of years. And I have decided to close the program next year, so basically a little over a year from today, on August 31st, 2027.

Here's what I like about the collab. The collab, I created a curriculum, which is the formal lawyer framework. It is essentially taking what I just talked about and putting it into modules that you enroll in the collab and then you go to the framework, which is set up as a curriculum and you literally walk through and do all of the things. Enrollment in the collab is closing permanently in a week. If you're going to enroll in the collab, it will be in the next week. After that, the Enrollment will be closed permanently. Now, the Collab will still be open for a year from next Monday, and that's to give everyone who has enrolled time to go through the process. And the thing is, in the Collab, you have access to the curriculum, but you also have access to our community on Circle where you can ask questions. You have access to a monthly call that I run for anyone in the Collab who needs, like, to talk through things, advice, strategies. You've gotten some results on an assessment and you're like, I'm not really sure what this means, whatever.

Also, there is a replay library of panels that I've hosted in the collab with former lawyers who have gone on to do other things. There are more than 40 videos in that replay library and many of them are panels with former lawyers who have gone on to work in the foreign service or in human resources or in compliance in higher ed, in legal tech, as therapists, in-house, because there's always this question of like, is in-house the answer?

If you're someone who is interested in moving through the framework and you're not someone who is prepared or able to work with me one-on-one, which is completely understandable, because I know that it is not something that's financially accessible for everyone, right now the collab is the way to go. And if you want into the collab, you need to join in the next week. So I wanted to talk through the framework today so that for those of you who might be thinking about joining the collab, you have a little bit more detail about what it's like.

If you would like to join, you can go to formerlawyer.com/collab, C-O-L-L-A-B. It will be open through August 31st. Enrollment will be open and then it will close. And then you'll have a year in our community with me and with a bunch of other lawyers, who are also working through the framework to start this process and figure out what it is that you want to do that isn't practicing law. Thank you so much for listening today. I'll talk to you next week.

Thanks so much for listening. I absolutely love getting to share this podcast with you. If you haven't yet, I invite you to download my free guide, First Steps to Leaving the Law, at formerlawyer.com/first.

Until next time, have a great week.