Sarah Cottrell: Hi, and welcome to The Former Lawyer podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Cottrell. I've practiced law for 10 years and now I help unhappy lawyers ditch their soul-sucking jobs. On this show, I share advice and strategies for aspiring former lawyers and interviews with former lawyers, who have left the law behind, to find careers and lives that they love. Hi, Amy. Welcome to The Former Lawyer podcast.

Amy Terwilleger: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Sarah Cottrell: I am really excited for you to share your story. Let's just start with the basics. Can you introduce yourself to the listeners?

Amy Terwilleger: Absolutely. So my name's Amy Terwilleger. I am someone who practiced law for 13 years at a large law firm, regional in Florida. And I now am a certified sex and relationship coach, who sometimes still practices law, but on my own terms.

Sarah Cottrell: I love it. And I think we got connected through someone else who was on the podcast, because the former lawyer and lawyer doing alternative things community is quite well connected, actually. So I'm sure that people are very curious about how you ended up doing what you're doing now. And we'll definitely get there. But I was thinking we should start where we usually start, which is can you tell the listeners what made you decide to go to law school?

Amy Terwilleger: Absolutely. I was a good student, always. And after college, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. So I actually went into restaurant management with a pretty high-end, well-known restaurant company. And it was a great experience. Being thrown, by the way, into like customer service and management, when you're 22, 23 years old, is horrifying, but also great, because, you learn, I learned so much about people and, you know, again, customer service, people management, all of those things. So it was a great experience, but obviously it wasn't like something I wanted to do for the rest of my life. Didn't really know what I wanted to do. And my whole life, everyone was like, oh, you'd be such a great lawyer. You'd be such a great lawyer. You're so smart. You should be a lawyer, the way you think, you'd be such a great lawyer. So I took the LSAT and then I did really well on the LSAT. So I was like, oh, I guess I would be a great lawyer. OK, let me go to law school. And then when I went to law school, I thought I was going to help domestic violence victims, or be a public defender. Because one thing I should have mentioned is, I have always been someone, who is very committed to like social justice issues and women's empowerment and things of that nature. And so those are the things I thought I was going to do. Went to law school, realized quickly I could not be a public defender, based on some of the comments from criminal law professors who had done that. How I ended up doing business litigation was because in law school I was a good student and so I got recruited by firms that did business litigation and other high-end sort of legal practices.

Sarah Cottrell: First of all, I thought the whole like, you're smart, you should go to law school, was interesting because it's such a common experience. But then also, what did you say? You said like, you took the LSAT and you did well, so you were like, oh, I guess I should go to law school. I think that is the experience for so many lawyers and not necessarily about the LSAT per se, although sometimes, I think often, we are smart kids, who do well in school and people are like, oh, you should think about law school. And we're like, okay, I'm smart. This seems like a good plan. And I think a lot of us go to law school without a very distinct sense of what we want to do, or if we do, it's sort of what you described, where it's like, I think many people who go to law school care a lot about social justice, care a lot about the community, care a lot about helping people. I mean, that's what I hear from my clients all the time. I went to law school, because I wanted to help people. And then the way that law school is structured and sort of, you know, the term that is often used on the podcast is it becomes a bit of a conveyor belt. Like if you do well in law school, you're very much shuttled in a particular direction. And then, you know, you find a lot of people coming out of law school and going into some sort of like private practice, which is very different from sort of what drew them to the law, but it's also basically what they're being told is like the thing that they should do.

Amy Terwilleger: Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, not for nothing, when you go to law school and you're like, OK, I'm going to come out and help people. But then you find out like starting salaries for the jobs that help people are not great. And you're looking at one hundred, two hundred, three hundred thousand dollars in student loans. It's a lot more enticing to take the job that, you know, helps you pay that back quickly. And so to the conveyor belt point, I think that's definitely part of it, is sometimes the realities are different than the expectations when you first start out.

Sarah Cottrell: I mean, I know this is true for me. When I went to law school, I actually didn't know. I didn't even know what big law was. I didn't know anything about... I had some vague sense of salary ranges, but I really had no concept of the economics of it all. Which, looking back now, I'm like, what the heck? What was I doing? But, you know, I don't know. I think it was perceived as such a smart choice that there was almost this sense of, well, why would you even need to think about that? Do you know what I mean?

Amy Terwilleger: Absolutely.

Sarah Cottrell: Everyone just sort of universally agrees. Going to law school would be a smart choice for you. So I'm wondering like at what point, so you graduate from law school, you start doing business litigation. Did you already have a sense before that of like, I'm not really on a trajectory that I am super thrilled about, or was it more like, you know, okay, like this seems like a fit and I'm going to, do you know what I mean? Like I'm wondering what your thought process was going into it.

Amy Terwilleger: My level of self-awareness was zero, I'll put it that way. So, I can honestly tell you, and I've talked about this publicly and it was something I obviously dealt with in therapy, at some point, but I was a person who was living a double life, in a way. Because the things that were important to me and who I am as a person, were not present in the life I was living. So I, like I said, I was someone, I was, like, a women's studies and history major in college. Again, very into, like, social justice, women's empowerment, you know, definitely, like, an outside-the-box kind of person. And when, you know, I graduated law school and took a job, you know, in a very, like, traditional sort of firm, in like, a traditional area. I got married to someone who's like a lovely person and I have nothing negative to say about him, but, you know, a more traditional person in just sort of like how… like in thought process. And so on paper, right, and like I was with the firm, I, you know, obviously skills were great. I'm a good technical lawyer, there was no issue there. But I'm a free thinker. Free thinking is not rewarded in a big firm.

Sarah Cottrell: No.

Amy Terwilleger: In fact, they actually start to resent that. I'll give you an example, because it's kind of funny. But at one point, the firm, they raised the salary for incoming first year associates. And this is when I was an associate. But they didn't raise all the other associates' salaries to be, like, the same amount, right?

Sarah Cottrell: Oh my gosh.

Amy Terwilleger: So, like, there was a situation where, like, fourth-year associates were only making, like, five grand more than the first-years. And we were all like, this is crap. So, who is the one person at the firm who had the balls to, like, stand up and say, this isn't right, you know, you need to raise everyone up? Me. So, like, squeaky wheel doesn't always get the grease, you know what I mean? Like, we got the grease for everybody. You know, like it doesn't look good being that person. It's not always like the best for you individually. But anyway, that's just the story of like my socia… right. Like this is where like my sense of justice, like it was like, no, this is wrong. You have to you do this and I'm going to speak up, because it's not right. Yeah. So I was on paper, I was living this like very perfect life. I was at the firm for a long time. I did enjoy a lot of the work I was doing. I loved a lot of my colleagues. You know, I was elevated to partner. I was deputy general counsel, because I did a lot of legal malpractice defense work. So on paper, right, like this is the perfect life for a lawyer. Like I was married. I had two kids. I was a partner. I was deputy. Like what more could you ever want? And I felt like nothing about the life I was living, was the life that I wanted for myself. It just, I felt like something, I had this constant, like, restless feeling. Like, the word on we is one of my favorite words, because that's how I felt all the time. Because I just was like, you know and it took me a while to figure out why I felt that way. But it was just because I was living somebody else's perfect life. It wasn't my perfect life.

Sarah Cottrell: Well, and okay, I have so many thoughts based on what you do. So first of all, I think that as soon as you said that you're an outside-of-the-box thinker, immediately in my brain was like, and large law firms do not like that. That is not valued. And in fact, I work with a ton of lawyers, who are neurodiverse, so either have ADHD or autism or both. And fun fact, if you're neurodiverse, you are very likely to be that person who's like, wait, you're saying this thing and then this other thing is happening that's not compatible. Or wait, you did this thing, but that doesn't make any sense. What's the deal? And to your point, have a very strong sense of justice. And that is not always something, and by not always, I mean, in general, it is not rewarded in large law firms. In general, large law firms like compliant employees.

Amy Terwilleger: And people who like want to bill a billion hours. And that's, you know, and like your value is really tied to your numbers in a lot of ways. And that's sad to someone like me. And like you said about the neurodivergence, like I've never been diagnosed, but like I was a gifted kid growing up. I have two gifted kids. I definitely have some autistic traits, I would say, that are strong, like the sense of justice and right and wrong and black and white thingy. I'm very direct. They're not always things that are valued in corporate settings.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. So first of all, I just wanted to say that, because I'm sure there are many people who are listening, who have that experience, who are that person and are like, what's wrong with me, right? Because ultimately what you're told sometimes explicitly, but definitely implicitly in these environments is like, there's something wrong with you that you are this way. And there's nothing wrong with you. You just are in an environment that doesn't value that way of operating in the world. I thought the other thing that you said that I think is really insightful and is such a common experience, on some level, for so many people, who've been on the podcast, or who I've worked with, is the sense of like so many people find themselves in a position, where they are working as a lawyer and on paper everything looks great. And they don't understand why they're so unhappy, or like they're so burnt out, or they're so like it's causing them to struggle so much and in almost all of those cases, a big part of it is that they made their decisions about what to do with their career and their life, based on like what other people said would make a person happy, which is different or fulfilled or, you know, be a good fit or whatever, however you want to phrase it. And what happens is people end up in this situation, where, to your point, they're like living a life that someone else says is impressive, but that doesn't actually align with their values.

Amy Terwilleger: A hundred percent.

Sarah Cottrell: And I know, you and I have talked about values before, so I'd love if you would want to share a little bit more about how you think the role of values played in the process of you sort of looking at what you were doing and deciding to do something different.

Amy Terwilleger: Sure. For me, the work I was doing, look, it's good work. We need people that want to do business litigation. Businesses have a lot of litigation and a lot of disputes, right? And there were some cases where I felt like I was genuinely helping people, like small businesses, kind of like the David versus Goliath situations. But a lot of the times my cases were just like businesses fighting about money. It was like things where, you know, I'm someone who values, like, compromise and I value, like, common sense, right? Like, why are we throwing good money after bad? Or why, like, as a business, right, like, it's in your best interest to settle this case for X, instead of spending Y to litigate it, right? Like, we're not... This is a business decision. Let's do this as a matter of business-savvy and not like a matter of principle. Especially when like the principle behind it was never, you know, it's not like someone like murdered your firstborn child. We're like, yeah, we're going to, you know, go scorched earth against that. Like, this is like the principle like, uh, he didn't like pay me what he… you know, like something where it's like the principle isn't that strong. And, you know, sometimes that it's like, literally, like, you know those things on Facebook where it's like, describe your job in a way that, like, doesn't use the word, but just, like, describe what you do. And someone described business litigation. It was like, I fight with another person about other people's money, right? Like, it was like, and I was like, oh, my God, that's the saddest distillation of what I do, but that's like, I'm fighting with someone else and we're both just fighting about other people's money. And the other thing is, you know in litigation there are sadly a lot of very toxic personalities in the other lawyers and that was another thing that wasn't aligning with my values, because I value like collaboration. And to me… and like collegiality and professionalism and civility, right, so like if someone ever reached out to me and they're like, oh, I need an extension because whatever, right? Like, of course, like, business litigation, these cases take six to 10 years to resolve. You needing two months is not changing anything, right? But I'd be, when I was on the asking side, I would be met with, like, all sorts, just for no reason. Just people just wanting to be a-holes just to be an a-hole. And it's, to me, that doesn't align with my values, because just why, right. Like I went on maternity leave twice, when I had my kids. Every… most people when I was like, hey, I'm going on maternity leave I need additional time on these discovery responses, or this, or that, or we need to move the hearing, most people were like, yeah, no problem, like enjoy your baby. Again six to ten year trajectory on this case, but I had some people that would be like no, get someone else to… and I'm like, and you know what, they were other young women, which was like the most mind blowing part of it. So not, you know, my point is, the subject matter of the cases and the behavior of opposing counsel frequently felt like it didn't align with my values. And I didn't feel like I was really like, you know, sometimes, like I said, I felt like I was really helping someone, but a lot of times, it just felt like we're just beating our heads against the wall, just to beat our heads against the wall.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah, I think there are some people who, like, that gamesmanship doesn't bother them. And, you know, I think there are lots of people who, lawyers who engage in gamesmanship, like, not even because it's necessarily what they prefer, but it's what they think they have to do in order to be, like, a quote unquote good lawyer. But if you're someone, who doesn't like gamesmanship, it is like, and I say this as someone who worked as a litigator and detests gamesmanship on like every level, it is like, physically painful to engage in some of this stuff. At least that was my experience. Like, it was like my entire nervous system, like my whole body was like, why? Why are we doing this?

Amy Terwilleger: Right.

Sarah Cottrell: Which isn't to say that like, you know, if someone else feels differently, like they're wrong and I'm right. But I think one of the things that is so important for people who are listening to realize is like, it doesn't have to be true that every person feels the way you feel about being a lawyer, or like your particular area of law. All that matters is what impact is it having on you? And that's real. That's real, even if it's different from what someone else would experience or is experiencing.

Amy Terwilleger: So accurate. So accurate. And the nervous system thing is so funny, because even now, because I still practice here and there, when I get a nasty email from someone, I can feel… I can feel the adrenaline or whatever.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah, the fight or flight is like whoosh.

Amy Terwilleger: Yeah, I can feel that. And it's very upsetting. And it's so funny, because when it happened recently, I brought it up in a therapy session and my therapist was like, well, just don't care. Why do you care what that person thinks? And I'm like, I wish it was that easy to just be like, oh, I don't care that someone's yelling at me and telling me I'm an idiot, you know, but I do care, because I'm an empathetic person and I don't like to be yelled at by people. Like, what do you mean?

Sarah Cottrell: Right. I think that's a really interesting point, because this is something I talk with people about a lot. There's this sense of like, well, if I was just mentally stronger or whatever, like it wouldn't bother me. And I'm like, if it wouldn't bother you that someone is being rude and disrespectful, like at a certain point, I think people have this expectation of themselves that they're not going to be human. And the reality is that, no matter how thick your skin is, or whatever, someone being rude or disrespectful, even if you don't believe anything they're saying, even if it's not going to have much of an impact on your life, other than having to intake the experience by reading, or listening, or whatever, it's still, even if you rationally know, I'm safe, this is not, these are just… you don't, I just recorded an episode of a podcast about this recently, you do not control whether your nervous system gets activated, because it's an autonomic… The autonomic nervous system is designed to be online regardless of what you are thinking, right? It's designed so that if a lion jumps through the window that you go into fight or flight and you rarely have control over what your nervous system perceives as a lion jumping through the window.

Amy Terwilleger: A hundred percent.

Sarah Cottrell: Anyway, sorry. Nervous system discourse rant.

Amy Terwilleger: Really, it's a great segue, because one of my things that I focus on as a sex and relationship coach is actually, I have this whole presentation I do, it's called Pleasure and Power. And basically what I talk about is that stress, right? And the effect on your nervous system. Your body can't tell the difference between like a tiger and like a nasty email from opposing counsel. The same nervous system reaction happens.

Sarah Cottrell: Yes, a hundred percent.

Amy Terwilleger: And what I like to talk to lawyers and professionals and people who, like, really don't prioritize their own pleasure, is that pleasure is your body's, like, natural antidote to that stress. Because when your stress and your cortisol levels are high, it interrupts your body's production of things like estrogen and testosterone. And tapping into pleasure helps to, like, reset all the other neurochemicals, which then help those hormones to like flow naturally again. So it's one of my favorite topics and something I love to talk to people about in my new role.

Sarah Cottrell: It's interesting, because I recorded an episode with someone a couple days ago and I was talking about the book “Burnout” by Emily and Amelia Nagoski and they talk about like completing the stress cycle, because basically when you are activated and you go into fight or flight, like we are supposed to sort of like go through a full cycle where that gets like processed and eliminated. But if you're someone who's like sitting at a desk and like dealing with stuff that's just like coming at you constantly that doesn't really happen, it just kind of gets like smashed down in your nervous system. Obviously, that's the technical description. But there are ways to allow the cortisol and adrenaline to actually cycle through. And one of those is related to pleasure, like you said, both sexual and otherwise. So I think that for people, burnout is such a… is something that one, lawyers deal with all the time and is just so like commonly discussed. And I think there is not enough focus on the fact that burnout is not like a planning thing, or like a scheduling thing. It's like primarily a nervous system thing.

Amy Terwilleger: A hundred percent, yea.

Sarah Cottrell: Okay, so Amy, can you tell us, you're practicing as a lawyer, you're a mate partner, how did you end up deciding to become a sex and relationship coach and what was that trajectory like?

Amy Terwilleger: Yeah, I get asked that question a lot, because they're like, whoa, those are really different things. And in some ways, yes, and in some ways, no. Like I said before, when I was in college, I was a history and women's studies major, very infested in like women's empowerment issues. And one of those was like women's sexual empowerment. And the first time I knew I wanted to be a sex coach was, when I saw the movie Meet the Fockers, which I think came out like in the early 2000s. And Ben Stiller's mom, played by Barbra Streisand, was a sex coach. And I just remember being like, I want to do that one day. That's the coolest job ever. But I also was self-aware enough to know that, like, at 20 years old, I didn't have, like, the life experience or, like, the gravitas to be able to do something like that, let alone, like, the relationship experience, right? Like I had maybe dated one person at that point. And so, you know, tucked that away, like, in the back of my brain somewhere. And, you know, like I said, went on to law school, did all the things. But as long as I can remember, friends and family have always come to talk to me about these issues. And it's because I am a very open person. I'm someone who like is comfortable talking about sex openly. I make a lot of jokes, whatever. So people like kind of intuitively understood that I was a safe space to talk to about those issues. And about three and a half years ago, I was with some friends of mine and I was giving unsolicited or potentially solicited advice to one of them about him wanting to increase the frequency of intimacy with his wife. And one of the other friends was like, you know, Amy, you're like the female hitch. And that movie's problematic for certain reasons at this point. We always go back and look at movies and we're like, ugh. But the point was more like, hey, how I took it was you could do this as a job. And so I started looking back into it and wrestled with that for a long time, going back and forth like, should I do this? Should I not do this? And then on my 39th birthday, I was like, you know what? I'm just going to become a certified sex coach by my 40th birthday. If I never do anything with it, who cares? But I'm going to become certified, so I can do it, because it's something I've always wanted to do. So I did do that. And then as I was in school to get certified, which the program I did was like a master's level program. It was a year long program and as I was in school for that, I realized, you know, being a full time attorney, a full time mom and going to school semi full time was a lot. And I also was like, for all the reasons we had talked about, I wasn't feeling like my big law job was in alignment with who I was as a person anymore. And there were just a lot of things about it that just weren't bringing me joy. So I decided to leave that and invest full time into this sex and relationship coaching.

Sarah Cottrell: Can you talk a little bit about the reactions that you got, when you decided to do that? Because I know that there are a lot of listeners, who have thought about doing something very different, but one of the things that stops them is like, oh my gosh, what will other people think? What will other people say? You know, these sorts of things. So I'm curious if you could share a little bit about your experience.

Amy Terwilleger: So it's funny, when I would talk to colleagues or other lawyers, they would be like, literally, girl, you think I was getting out of prison. The way people talk to me, they're like, you have to tell me what it's like on the other side. Oh my God, take me with you. The desperation in these people's voices, I could just hear that they were like, not jealous, but there was some level of like, I wish I could not be doing, right? Like there was some, I swear it felt like I was like getting paroled from prison, the way that people responded. When I talked to like, you know, my friends and family were nothing but supportive. Everyone was like, that's a great career for you. You're going to be great at that. I didn't really get a lot of negative reactions, but who knows what people say behind your back, right? But everyone I tell is always fascinated, because they are such different things, at least when you first hear, right? You think business litigation to sex, those couldn't be more different. But where the similarities kind of lie is I'm helping people solve problems, or reach a goal. And in that way, it's very similar, but it's softer, it feels better. But yeah, so people's reactions were generally positive, or people kept saying, well, that's really brave, or wow, I can't believe, you know, like, kind of shocked.

Sarah Cottrell: For anyone listening who's thinking about people, specifically about people talking behind your back, so here's my thing about that. People are going to talk behind your back, right? Because lawyers should talk about stuff, especially lawyers who are invested in the profession, or in their organization. When someone leaves, there's this sense of threat sometimes that they feel like they need to protect and convince themselves that them staying is the right decision for everyone. But if what is keeping you in your lawyer job, is a fear of what someone will say about you, when you won't even hear them, that is rational in the sense that it will happen, right? People are going to talk behind your back. However, the fact that it has that level of power over you, if you're a listener and you're like, that is part of what stops me, is something you should take to therapy. And this is the part of the episode where I mention, as I do almost every episode, that if you're a lawyer, you should be in therapy, because the reasons that people do not leave, or don't think about leaving, or think they can't leave, are often much less the practical things like money, even though obviously those things do matter. And often much more things like I cannot physically and emotionally tolerate the idea of someone saying something about me that is critical in some way. And that is something that you can work on in therapy, so that you aren't getting stuck, because of stuff like that. Okay, so Amy, what would you like to share with the listeners about sort of like your move into coaching and where you are now and things that you think they might want to think about if there's someone who's like, oh, that sounds cool. Or if there's someone who's like, holy cow, how did you go from that to that?

Amy Terwilleger: Reflecting back, right? Like the work I'm doing is amazing. I love working with clients on these issues. I will also say, when you're looking back at the time and I would say for other people, who are feeling as though they need a change and they're, we'll say, disgruntled with the practice of law, be creative about how you practice law, because that's the other thing. It's not an all or nothing. You can find a way to practice law that aligns with the things you care about. So like, for example, you know, yes, I'm doing sex and relationship coaching, but I also still practice law, but I get to do it on my own terms. And having that experience has made me feel less hostile, right, in my emotions towards the practice of law, because it's like I'm doing it in a way that feels good to me. And so I would just say, like, if you're at that point where, like, something has to change, but I don't know, you know, it's not all or nothing. You don't have to leave law entirely, especially when you've given it so much of your life and it's so much of your identity, that you can find a way to do it, but do it in a way that makes sense and feels good to you. And if you have some other hobby, right, or hobby or interest or something else you want to pursue, you should absolutely do that, because you only get one chance here on this earth, you know? And so you're always going to regret it if you don't take the leap and try something else. But the thing is, it's not forever, right? Like, you can leave, try something else, and decide, I want to go back to practicing law. And then this beautiful thing happens, where you get to decide how to practice law in the way you want and also with the skills that you gain from trying something new. And that to me is like just a beautiful thing. There's a world of opportunity out there. I would say don't stay in something that isn't making you happy. Because as we were talking about earlier, the effect on your nervous system, it's just not worth it. And all of that has an effect on everything in your life, on your interpersonal relationships. If you have a partner, like a romantic partner, it has an effect on that. Those things are really important, too.

Sarah Cottrell: I think one of the things that I've observed now, like doing this work as long as I have and talking with so many people from the podcast, who have gone through this process, is that there is a huge amount, there is a huge difference between practicing law, because you feel like you don't have any other choice, or because you feel stuck and finding a way to practice where you feel like it is an actual choice. And I often will work with people who do ultimately want to leave, but they're on a longer timeline. So say they want to leave in two years, or five years, or whatever, because they have various things that they want to accomplish between now and when they actually leave the law. For a lot of them, just having a timeline, like a plan of what is ultimately going to happen, changes their experience of what they're doing. It's not that it makes it so much different per se, but it changes the way that they experience, because of the fact that it feels more like a choice to stay, as opposed to like, I'm trapped. And that can really change how difficult the day-to-day feels for some people. Because, to your point, it returns a sense of agency.

Amy Terwilleger: Absolutely.

Sarah Cottrell: Say someone is listening to you talk and they're like, wow, sex and relationship coach, that's super interesting and very different from what I'm doing now. What would you recommend to someone who is like, oh, that sounds interesting and I might want to learn what it is like to do that type of job?

Amy Terwilleger: I would say talk to people who do coaching. It's a very rewarding career. There's obviously people who do so many different kinds of coaching and obviously sex and relationship coaching is very niche, very specific. But I would just talk to people who do it and find out what the day-to-day is like, where the pressure points are, where the, you know, the wins are. That's the best way to find out about something new. I will say, you know, for someone who's like, ooh, sex and relationship coach, what is that? What are you doing? Then, you know, let me explain it just a little more. I work with individuals and couples, the thing I always say is consenting adults, right? Whatever's going on between consenting adults. Individuals and couples who have a concern or goal that touches on any aspect of sex, sexuality, or relationships. I also do some divorce coaching, because I am an attorney. So I actually understand… and I actually practice family law sometimes. And so I understand the law and I also have the training as a coach to help people sit in, you know, hold space for some of the things that come up during that process. Pretty much anything that touches on those issues. And as a sex and relationship coach, if there's like one thing I want people to realize, it's a couple of things. I mean, pleasure is not a luxury and you are entitled to it. And again, it is the antidote to stress. So it's actually quite important in your life. And the other thing I would say is like, don't let small issues in your relationship build over time, because a lot of people don't want to invest the money to hire a counselor, a coach, a therapist, a professional that can help you. But like a divorce will be much more expensive, both like from a monetary standpoint and like your quality of life standpoint and the trauma that that entails. So I liken it to this, as a business litigator, I would get a lot of people who would come to me with poorly written contracts or no contracts, right? They're like, well, my brother and I started a business together. We didn't think we needed a contract. we're brothers, right, we're best friends, whatever it was. And now they're in this expensive litigation where everything is sloppy and horribly done, because they did it themselves or ChatGPT did it or whatever. You know, someone who doesn't understand the law did it. I mean, you know, now instead of spending $5,000 up front to have really solid documents that say what happens in the event of XYZ, well now we're in XYZ and you're going to spend $500,000 litigating about it. So, you know, it's the same thing in relationships. It's worth a small investment if there's any sort of tension in your relationship. And honestly, I've never known anyone, even in the best relationships and the happiest relationships, there's still tension. It's worth the investment upfront, instead of letting that build to resentment and something bigger and ultimately a collapse of the relationship.

Sarah Cottrell: I think that's really good advice. Amy, if people want to connect with you, where can they find you online?

Amy Terwilleger: I have a website, you can go to www.sexcoachamy.com. That'll take you to my website. I also have an Instagram that I post a lot of content on these topics and that is Millennial Dr. Ruth. So for those of you who are old enough to remember Dr. Ruth.

Sarah Cottrell: Yes.

Amy Terwilleger: She's my spirit animal. So Millennial is two L's and two N's and then Doctor is D-R, and then Ruth, R-U-T-H. Those are probably the two best ways to find me. On my Instagram, there's a link tree that'll take you to all the other links also.

Sarah Cottrell: Okay, awesome. And we will put those links in the show notes, so for anyone who's listening, you can just tap, tap, tap, and find it. Amy, thank you so much for joining me. This was really fun and I really enjoyed hearing your story. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Thanks so much for listening. I absolutely love getting to share this podcast with you. If you haven't yet, I invite you to download my free guide, First Steps to Leaving the Law at formerlawyer.com/first.

Until next time, have a great week.