Sarah Cottrell: Hi, and welcome to The Former Lawyer podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Cottrell. I've practiced law for 10 years and now I help unhappy lawyers ditch their soul-sucking jobs. On this show, I share advice and strategies for aspiring former lawyers and interviews with former lawyers, who have left the law behind to find careers and lives that they love.

Sarah Cottrell: Hi, Zach. Welcome to The Former Lawyer podcast.

Zach Reisch: Hello, thank you.

Sarah Cottrell: I am very excited. So, okay, just for everyone listening, this is what happens if you are on my email list, or you're a podcast listener and you email me and you say like, hey, Sarah, I did this thing and now I'm not practicing law. I very frequently will be like, that's great, do you want to be on the podcast? And that's what happened to Zach. So, Zach, let's start with you introducing yourself to the listeners and then we'll go from there.

Zach Reisch: Yeah, absolutely. So I practiced law for about five years and three years ago started working with my wife at a personal training studio that she started. And now I am a co-owner of that studio. So I'm a personal trainer and small business owner now.

Sarah Cottrell: Amazing. That is very different from practicing law.

Zach Reisch: Yeah.

Sarah Cottrell: Okay, so why don't we start, where we usually start on this podcast, which is basically back at the beginning and then we'll sort of get to the details of what that move was like. Can you tell me what made you decide to go to law school in the first place?

Zach Reisch: Yeah, totally. Probably about the same as a lot of people. I was a history major in college, graduated and didn't really know what to do. And I took a year off, to think about it and both my parents were lawyers, so I knew about the law and it seemed like a way for me to keep using my research and writing skills and also hopefully help people. That was kind of my rationale for going.

Sarah Cottrell: It's interesting, because a lot of people I talk to, there almost are two extremes. There are people like me, who would say, I knew nothing about being a lawyer, there were no lawyers in my family, whatever. And then there are other people who are like, basically everyone in my family was a lawyer and it just made sense. And yet, somehow, so many of us still end up in the same place. So can you tell me, when you got to law school, did you have this sense of like, yes, this is definitely the right path? Or was it just sort of like, well, it was the next thing that made sense.

Zach Reisch: I think that at law school, I actually kind of liked law school. So I think at the time, it kind of did feel like it made sense, because I felt like I was learning a lot of really interesting things and found the law itself very interesting. It was extremely stressful, obviously and I regret being that stressed out, knowing that I wouldn't even be practicing it five years later. But I think apart from the stress it did, in law school it actually did feel like a decent fit for me.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah, OK, so that's interesting. And there are a lot of people, again, there are a lot of people who will say, like, I got to law school and it was like, wow, this is such a bad fit. But then there are a lot of us, who are in law school and we're like, OK, this feels OK. And then they started practicing and they were like, uh, not so sure about this experience. So can you tell me how you figured out, what you wanted to do, coming out of law school and then what your experience was when you actually started practicing?

Zach Reisch: Yeah, absolutely. So I did the on-campus interviews for the big law firms and I got exactly one offer. So I took that offer. I also wanted to clerk, because, I don't know, it just seemed like something I would enjoy even more of the sort of research and writing stuff. So I also applied for a clerkship at the State Supreme Court and I got that. I did that and then went right to the law firm, the big corporate law firm, where I did commercial litigation. I was interested in learning about more transactional work, but it already seemed like you had to choose at that point. I figured I didn't know anything about transactional work, but I did from law school know a little bit about litigation. That's how I ended up in litigation. And I thought I might like it, because I couldn't tell. It seemed sort of scary to me, but I couldn't tell if it was like scary, but also in a good way. So I would like it, or if it was scary in a way that I would end up hating it. And I ended up hating it. But yeah. So anyway, that's sort of how I ended up there.

Sarah Cottrell: Well, it's so interesting, because I think that, I mean, I also ended up doing commercial litigation, which I know I've talked about on the podcast before, for not dissimilar reasons. I think that a lot of us and granted, you saw it more up close, since your parents were lawyers, but I think a lot of us who think about being lawyers, for the most part, the typical person, who's like, oh yeah, I've thought about being a lawyer, kind of thinks about courtroom, or like courtroom adjacent or like something, do you know what I mean?

Zach Reisch: Yeah.

Sarah Cottrell: And so, especially when you feel pressure to like make a decision early on, it's sort of like, well, should I choose the thing that I know a tiny bit about, or should I choose the thing that is just like an absolute black box of question mark, question mark.

Zach Reisch: Yes.

Sarah Cottrell: And I think one of the things that is true about our profession that is not true about lots of other professions is that you tend to be pigeonholed very quickly. Like, you know, you can be someone who is out of like a year out of law school and already trying to like even like change practice groups, if people are sort of like what, what, why. And, you know, for those of us who've practiced, it's like, okay, like, it's only been a year. Pretty sure that you can, like, but there is this, much more so than in other industries, there is this sense of, like, whatever you choose is, like, the thing that you then do, which I think makes people feel a little bit constrained in ways that are very unfortunate.

Zach Reisch: Yeah, I totally agree with that. I mean, it was very odd to me that they wouldn't really give me and I think some firms are different, but at least the firm I went to, they wouldn't even really give you any experience in different practice groups, once you kind of chose it, even though, like you said, none of us knew anything about what we were doing, so there was no reason why we couldn't try new things. Yeah.

Sarah Cottrell: Yes. We are equally clueless. So, you know, there's a selling point. OK, so you said something about you weren't sure if it was going to be scary in a way that you would like it, or scary in a way that you would hate it. Can you explain a little bit what you mean by that?

Zach Reisch: I'm sort of an anxious person. So I…

Sarah Cottrell: High five.

Zach Reisch: Yeah.

Sarah Cottrell: Anyway, carry on.

Zach Reisch: Yeah. That's part of what I love about this podcast is just how open you are about that stuff. It's often hard for me to decide, do I dislike this, because of my anxiety, or do I dislike this because it doesn't fit with my personality and goals? And I think, I sort of just wasn't sure, law seemed very stressful in a lot of ways, but I wasn't sure if that was just me, or if it was, you know, just incompatible with my personality, or if I had to kind of get over something. So I think it took me a little while to realize it was, it just wasn't compatible with me. And there wasn't really any way for me to, I would have to like totally change my personality, essentially, to be comfortable in the environments I was in, as opposed to like, something that I could fix in therapy.

Sarah Cottrell: I am nodding a lot over here. And not just because it was my own experience, but also because I think this is an experience that so many people, who become lawyers, have. And the reason is that I think for various reasons, people who end up becoming lawyers are often people who have been, who have had sort of like drilled into their head, like mind over matter, like you can just sort of decide to do something and do it. And fundamentally, the experience of anxiety, like clinical anxiety, the kind of thing that we're talking about, is a nervous system response, right? It is not something that is running through your thought process. It is your literal autonomic nervous system. I think for a lot of us, people will say to me, I don't understand why this is so triggering for me, to be in commercial litigation, where you have a lot of manufactured emergencies and various other things that I'm sure we can talk about. And the reality is that like, I think a lot of the confusion for us comes from the fact that a lot of us have this expectation that we should just be able to think our way through it. And our nervous systems are just like, sorry, that is not going to work for me. I don't know how much you relate to that.

Zach Reisch: Yeah, I mean, I a hundred percent relate to that. I think It took me a while to realize, to just sort of accept that I am who I am. And something that I think to myself sometimes is like, there are a lot of people doing really cool jobs that I would never do. Like, I'm really glad firefighters exist, but I'll never be a firefighter for a million reasons. And it's like kind of the same thing with the law. And I don't need to feel badly about that. It's just not compatible with me.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah, it's not like a value judgment. If you're someone where being a lawyer isn't a good fit for you, it doesn't mean like, oh, you're a bad person. Even though sometimes the way people talk about it in the law, there is sort of this implication of like, oh, I don't know, you're weak. And it's like, no, it's just some people are, like, suited for certain things and some people aren't. And I think that, again, I think that a lot of us who became lawyers were sort of caught that, like, we... How do I put this? That we didn't... That we weren't... There was no, like, limitation around, like, capacity, or around personality, or around any of those things, because we could just, like, you know, decide and do. And for a lot of us, I think that works on many levels until we hit something that's, like, very overwhelming for the nervous system, which we all know, the legal profession has, like, horrendous rates of, like, mental illness and anxiety and depression and a lot of that is because the environment itself is not supportive for people's nervous systems. I'm curious when you, as you were talking about it just now, you seemed very, like, calm and settled. Did you, when you first started realizing like, oh no, this is really not a fit, were you already at that place where you were like, maybe it's just not for me? Or was it more like, oh no, and then a process? Does that make sense?

Zach Reisch: Absolutely. I was definitely not okay. I still have nightmares about leaving my law job. So it's like, yeah, it was, it was really tough, because I mean, everything you always talk about on this podcast, like identity and feeling like I'm failing and having, you know, I'm, I was sort of a high achieving student. So I was like, I don't want to be unable to cut it and there was no clear exit strategy because, you know, unlike in school or clerking, it wasn't just going to end. Like if I stayed at this job, I would just be there until, you know, just forever if, if they didn't fire me. So there was definitely a lot of stress and a lot of not knowing what to do. And it was, yeah, it was very stressful.

Sarah Cottrell: Can you tell me how you started to work through all of that stuff?

Zach Reisch: Yeah, absolutely. So listening to this podcast was huge.

Sarah Cottrell: Aw.

Zach Reisch: It really was. I mean, I remember driving into work every day listening to it. And it just really helped to know that there was an entire industry around what I was dealing with. That was just sort of... It gave me a little outside perspective, because otherwise you're just in the bubble and you don't understand that there are other options. That was really helpful and going to therapy was really helpful.

Sarah Cottrell: I'm a fan. Anyway, carry on.

Zach Reisch: Yes, absolutely. Therapy was really helpful. Talking to my wife, who was not a lawyer, really helped. So I guess talking through it now, really talking to anyone except lawyers was really helpful.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah, well, I say that it is very helpful to talk to other lawyers, who are having a similar experience that you are.

Zach Reisch: Yes, yes.

Sarah Cottrell: But one of the reasons that I created the podcast in the first place is that I had the experience, when I was practicing, where I'd be talking to someone about how terrible things were, and they'd be agreeing with me. But then I'd be like, so like, this surely should mean something, like, maybe I should... And they would just be like, no, it just, like, is... And I just...

Zach Reisch: Yes.

Sarah Cottrell: It was a challenge. And there are people who don't feel about it the way that I feel about it, right? And so, understandably, for people in that position who are like, this isn't so bad, or actually, I like it, like, they just don't have the same experience.

Zach Reisch: Yeah.

Sarah Cottrell: So, I'm wondering, like, you mentioned, like, the identity piece.

Zach Reisch: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Cottrell: But I'm also wondering, because of course, one of the things that people will say to me and pretty much everyone who I work with says some variation of like, I know, I don't want to be doing what I'm doing right now, but I have no idea what I want to do. And I don't even really know how to figure it out. So I'm wondering, I know you mentioned talking with your wife and also that she was doing personal training. So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about sort of like that arc and how that all started to shape up.

Zach Reisch: I feel like I never did learn what I wanted to do next, because I just kind of got so fed up that I asked my wife, like, because it was a new business. My wife had just started her own personal training business and it was pretty new and she was, you know, it was really tough so she could use some help. And I, at a certain point, got really fed up with my job and just said, could I help you with the business? And she was really excited about that idea. And so it didn't come from any sort of like, desire to be a small business owner or be in the personal training space or the fitness space. I had applied to library school, which I, in my head, was like, something that did fit more with my experience and personality and decided after I started working with my wife to not go that route. But what I'm trying to say is like, And two, I think it prevents people from making moves that do ultimately lead to them getting the kind of clarity that they need. And that feels very haphazard, I think, to a lot of lawyers. It feels like that can't possibly be the way to do it. But I think, like, your experience demonstrates that taking action in a way that makes sense, even if you aren't like, this is going to be the thing forever, can actually be highly clarifying.

Zach Reisch: Yes, I totally agree with that.

Sarah Cottrell: So can you tell me a little bit about what it was like going from practicing law to this completely different thing? And I'm sure there are many differences between what you were doing then and what you're doing now. And I would just like the listeners to sort of like get a sense of that.

Zach Reisch: Yeah, absolutely. So the transition was rough, because I was working with my spouse, which I now really enjoy, but was, you know, it's tough sometimes. And especially at the beginning, it was kind of tough. And it was tough to feel like I was starting over, because I had sort of a going back to the identity, this idea of myself as an important person, because I had been a lawyer and now I kind of had no idea what I was doing. So I started off, doing just admin work for the business. And then I, it seemed like the business needed another personal trainer. So I got certified as a personal trainer and started training people and then eventually became a part owner. And at this point I'm pretty much involved in every part of the business. But I actually ended up really liking the personal training piece more than any other piece. Even though, when I started working for the business, I was like, I'll do a lot of the writing and the research pieces and the online stuff, because that scene, I thought that was kind of what I was good at and what I had experience with. But it kind of turns out that even though I'm pretty good at a lot of those things, I actually really enjoy the more one-on… or like person to person interaction of the training. So yeah, it's kind of been an evolution over the last three years.

Sarah Cottrell: That's interesting, because many people come to me and they'll say, one of the reasons that I became a lawyer was that I wanted to help people. Lots of people who have been on the podcast talk about that as well. And I think that for a lot of us, when we sort of go to law school with that as one of our goals, we maybe don't realize how much that individual interaction with the people, who you are like working with or helping, is part of that. You know, I often talk to people who are in some cases even like doing, you know, pro bono stuff or are working in a non-profit and are doing things that, you know, like objectively one could describe as like helping people. But because there isn't that individual interaction, it doesn't feel meaningful for them in the way that they expected. It sounds like that maybe was part of the dynamic there for you. Is that accurate?

Zach Reisch: Yeah, I agree with that, because I definitely did pro bono work that like you said, you're sort of doing things behind the scenes. And even though it's important, it doesn't necessarily feel as fulfilling. But what I do now, even though the stakes maybe are sometimes lowest, not always, but sometimes lower for people in the fitness setting, it feels more immediate, because I'm actually interacting with the people I'm helping.

Sarah Cottrell: I'm wondering, like, if someone is listening and they're thinking, like, oh, this sounds interesting. This sounds very different from what I'm doing now. I'm wondering if you have, well, and I also imagine that people might have thoughts like, oh, if I were to want to do something like this, I would need to, like, be, I don't know, someone who's like super into fitness or whatever, blah, blah, blah. So I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about just like the practicalities, or the practical realities of going from, you know, one type of work and deciding to do a different type of work that has like a very different profile.

Zach Reisch: Yeah, absolutely. So personal training in particular, there's actually a fairly low barrier to entry and a lot of people do it as a second career. So, you know, my situation was pretty unique, because I was also helping to run a small business. But a lot of people… to start being a personal trainer, you get a certification, which if you can pass the bar exam, you can pass the personal trainer certification. As soon as you get that certification, you can start training people. There are a lot of different places you can go. You can train by yourself. You can go work for a gym. There are a million gyms hiring personal trainers. I think something that was really helpful for me was my wife taking me to several sort of immersive conferences about fitness that she knew were really high quality and going to those helped me see the different sorts of people in the industry, the different, you know, the jargon, the personalities of people, who did different types of fitness. So even though I didn't come into it with any sort of, really any knowledge other than what I heard from my wife about like what she was doing at her job, really any knowledge about fitness, I just kind of learned it. Like you can kind of learn, you can just learn how it works. Just like you can learn how to be a lawyer.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. And well, in fact, those of us who became lawyers tend to be very good at learning things.

Zach Reisch: Yeah, exactly.

Sarah Cottrell: That tends to be in the wheelhouse. OK, so here's something else that I think would be interesting for listeners to hear, because a lot of people who are thinking about doing something else that is not practicing law, have this idea of like, well, maybe I'd like to own my own business for various reasons. And so as someone who owns her own business, I am very aware of some of the things about being a business owner that are super different from being a commercial litigator. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that, because I know you said, when you started working with your wife, there was the whole, I'm working with my spouse and that's a whole thing to sort of like to work out. But also, can you talk a little bit about the things about being a business owner that maybe people don't think about when they're like, oh, I think I might like to own my own business, or things that lawyers should be thinking about if it's something that they're considering?

Zach Reisch: I think my biggest takeaway about owning a business so far has been, you have to be like really good already at the thing you're selling. Well, you don't have to be, but it seems to be a lot easier if you're already really good at the thing you're selling, before you start the business. So like if I had tried to start a personal training business myself, it would have been a disaster, because I would have had to figure out both, how to be a good personal trainer and how to run a business. In the case of my wife, she was already an experienced and really good personal trainer. So she just had to figure out how to apply that in a financially viable way, which was itself like a huge task. So I think I'm glad that I got this experience and that I didn't try to go out on my own and just start something that I knew nothing about. That's kind of been my biggest takeaway, is like, it's helpful to be really confident in whatever you're doing, because the business side is, it's kind of its own beast.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, one of the things that I think people don't think about is that there's running a business and there's doing whatever it is. If you're a service provider, there's providing whatever service. And those are two different things.

Zach Reisch: Yes, exactly.

Sarah Cottrell: So like, for me, as a former lawyer, there's the services that I provide through the collab, there's the one-on-one coaching, there's this podcast and that's all more actually doing the thing. And then there's everything else, which is, you know, making sure that people know that these things exist and like all of the back-end stuff and the whole sales and marketing piece, which I think for most lawyers, especially people, who might be prone towards anxiety, sales and marketing is sort of terrifying in multiple ways. But I think one of the big things about it that can be really shocking, when you're someone who has worked as a lawyer is, how much trial and error there is, especially with marketing. The idea that you just kind of have to, like, go for it and see how things go, is so contrary, I think, to the way that we are trained to work as lawyers. And I think that, at least for me, I will say, for me, that has for sure been one of the pieces that I have had to, like, learn the most about. And by that, I just mean, like, learn to tolerate the discomfort of, I don't know. I'm just going to try it and see how it goes. I don't know if you've had any sort of similar experiences, but I know that for me, that is something that was fairly shocking coming from the practice of law.

Zach Reisch: Yeah, that's really validating and I totally agree with it. Because yeah, selling your product or whatever it is you're offering is really emotionally challenging. Because especially if sort of you're a service provider, you're sort of, you sort of wrap yourself up in your service. So a rejection of the service, it's easy to be seen as a rejection of you. Yeah, it can be really hard to figure that out, I think. And that's definitely been the hardest part for me.

Sarah Cottrell: You know, one of the things, too, is that, like, with something like law, there's very clear external markers of, like, you're on the path, whatever the path is. And, you know, so for people out there who are thinking about, you know, would I like being a business owner? Would I like being an entrepreneur? Would I like owning a small business? I will say that all of the things that we've talked about so far about identity and your identity being wrapped up in being a lawyer, can also be true if you're someone who also ends up owning a business.

Zach Reisch: Yes.

Sarah Cottrell: And again, this is one of the many reasons that I recommend therapy, but part of the work that you end up having to do, no matter what you're doing, but especially if you end up doing work like this, is how can I feel okay, like, as a person, separated apart from whatever is happening with my business?

Zach Reisch: Yes.

Sarah Cottrell: Because, pro tip, if you were a lawyer and you sort of, like, have tied up your achievement with who you are, that doesn't go away just because you leave law.

Zach Reisch: Yeah, it's really, it's honestly really, really nice to hear you say that, because I sometimes will wake up in the morning and be like, am I just back in my law days? Like, you know, that sense of anxiety, sort of needing people to like me and thinking, am I a good business owner? Am I a good trainer? And yeah, I mean, I guess I have a propensity to think that way, which is maybe why, partially, why I became a lawyer. And yeah, that totally makes sense to me that it wouldn't just go away, because you've changed jobs.

Sarah Cottrell: Yes, which is why, as I've mentioned several times, dear listeners, you should go to therapy. If you're not in therapy, I literally could not recommend it more. Literally, it would be excessive. Do you want to talk a little bit, Zach, about what a typical month, week, day looks like. I don't know which would be easiest to sort of talk about just in terms of the things that you're doing or the way that it works, like schedule or the buckets of work, that kind of thing.

Zach Reisch: Yeah, absolutely. So generally, the buckets of work for me are sort of basic admin tasks like responding to a member question, you know, like scheduling questions, just answering email, onboarding new members, like putting them into our system, stuff like that. So there's certainly admin work. Then there's the more business owner work like you were talking about marketing, which could mean writing marketing emails, we have a weekly newsletter that goes out, so I write that. I will do follow-up sales calls, so if someone expresses interest in us through our website, I'll call them. Learning to cold call people has probably been the hardest thing I've ever done in my life…

Sarah Cottrell: That checks out.

Zach Reisch: … but that's part of the job. So there's all that. And then there's… my wife does a lot of business to business networking. So she'll go out and meet with other local business owners. And like, if I was the only business owner, I would have to do a lot of that. It's really important to network with other people in your area, or your industry. And then the final piece is the training. At this point I train like 15 to 20 hours a week and then the rest is admin and marketing. We have one employee, who also does some training and admin, so our goal is over time to be able to do less of the admin stuff. I really like the training, so I'd like to keep doing the training and more of the owner work as well over time.

Sarah Cottrell: That makes sense. Okay, Zach, we're getting close to the end of our conversation. Is there anything else that you would like to share about your story, or your experience that we haven't touched on yet?

Zach Reisch: I don't think so. I think my biggest takeaway is what you emphasized too, which is being and I don't know, I just sort of lucked into this, but being willing to just try something without knowing if it's going to work, ended up working for me, which I naturally don't tend to do that, so I'm really glad that I did in this case and yeah, I don't know, it might work for other people.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah, well and I think the other thing, one of the things that I've seen too, in working with so many lawyers now, who have like made various moves is, I think a lot of us who became lawyers, do not have a high degree of like trust in our internal intuition, or instincts, because we've basically been told we need to like look to external markers of authority for like to know that what we're doing makes sense. And I think the more that you cultivate a skill, because I do believe it's a skill, of just being able to tap into your instinct, or your intuition to have a sense of, oh yeah, this feels like a good next step, even if that next step is not the ultimate step. I find that for most people, they find it easier to continue to make moves, when they have started to cultivate their own ability to access their instinct, in a way that I think as lawyers we have been... I think we're often told you can't... Basically, don't trust your instinct, only trust your brain, don't trust your gut. And it actually helps to have more than one type of intelligence, to be able to draw upon, when you're making decisions about what is the next best thing to do. I was just doing two thumbs up, but no one can see me. So anyway, all right. So Zach, I should have asked this at the beginning, but you have like a physical training location. Is that right? And where are you located?

Zach Reisch: Oh yeah. Yes, we do have a physical location. It's in a neighborhood of Boston, Massachusetts.

Sarah Cottrell: Got it. Okay. So if people would like to find out more information about that or about you, where can they find you on the internet?

Zach Reisch: You can go to RozzieFitness.com, which is the name of our personal training studio. It's R-O-Z-Z-I-E fitness.com. And yeah, if anyone wants to talk to me about being a former lawyer, it's definitely something I love talking about. And yeah, feel free to reach out.

Sarah Cottrell: Amazing. Okay. Well, we will put those links or that link in the show notes. Otherwise, thank you for agreeing to come on the podcast, after you emailed me and I sprang that request upon you. I really appreciate you sharing your story. I think it'll be really interesting and helpful for a lot of people.

Zach Reisch: Well, thank you for doing the podcast and for having me on.

Thanks so much for listening. I absolutely love getting to share this podcast with you. If you haven't yet, I invite you to download my free guide, First Steps to Leaving the Law at formerlawyer.com/first.

Until next time, have a great week.