Sarah Cottrell: Hi, and welcome to The Former Lawyer Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Cottrell. I practiced law for 10 years and now I help unhappy lawyers ditch their soul-sucking jobs. On this show, I share advice and strategies for aspiring former lawyers, and interviews with former lawyers who have left the law behind to find careers and lives that they love.

October is ADHD Awareness Month, and since this is the first episode in October, I wanted to re-release an episode that originally came out last year during this month, a conversation that I had with Annie Little about disclosure of ADHD and other conditions, either like neurodivergence or mental health at work, because there are lots of complex questions and things that come up for lawyers when they are thinking about disclosing this type of diagnosis.

Also, every time I release an episode where I talk with someone about ADHD, I almost invariably hear from at least one listener that they realized that they probably had ADHD listening to a guest who has ADHD talk about their experience.

So even if you don't have ADHD as a lawyer, you assuredly work with many people who do twice as many lawyers report having ADHD as the general population. So this, I think, is a really important conversation to keep in mind, especially both for people who might be disclosing, but also if you work with someone who discloses to you that they have ADHD. Here is my conversation with Annie Little about ADHD disclosure.

Hey, it's Sarah. I want to remind you that I am now working with a very limited number of lawyers one-on-one who are trying to figure out what it is that they want to do that isn't practicing law. What we'll do when we work together one-on-one is we will meet for 12 weeks and you and I will walk through the framework that I've created to help lawyers do exactly that. On top of personalizing that and making individualized choices about which pieces of that you need to focus on, spend more time on, spend less time on, I also have the capacity to lend my brain to your situation.

When we're working together one-on-one, I'm able to look at cover letters, resumes, and other things that you may be putting together, cold outreach emails, figuring out who you might want to reach out to, figuring out, “Okay, I have all this information about who I am, values, personality, strengths, etc., from these various assessments, but how do I put that together into a picture of what it is that I actually want to be doing? How do I figure out what I actually want my life and career to look like?” all of those things.

If that sounds like something that would be helpful to you, I would love to talk with you about whether or not working with me one-on-one is the right fit for you. Go to the website, the Work With Me drop-down, there's a link to information about working with me one-on-one. You can see more details and the price as well as the button to book a free consult with me so that we can talk through whether working with me in this capacity would be the right fit for you. I onboard one new one-on-one client per month so if this is something that you're interested in, definitely schedule that call as soon as you can because I fill the spots on a first-come-first-served basis. I look forward to talking with you about whether working together one-on-one could be a good fit.

Okay, two weeks ago, I released an episode where I talked a bit about disclosure of ADHD and other things like mental health issues like anxiety and depression, particularly in the context of law firms and some of the things that make that difficult, because as you and I both know, Annie worked in the legal industry and then worked with many other lawyers in various contexts, there are lots of ways in which the industry, and particularly firms are not very friendly to anyone who indicates any needs of any variety.

Annie Little: Any human need of any kind.

Sarah Cottrell: Yes. But today, I want to talk about something in particular that is unfortunately very common in law firms when it comes to lawyers with ADHD, and that is the reality that often, there is this expectation of “Oh, you have ADHD. Cool, can we just fix you and make you someone who doesn't have ADHD? Because that is what would be most convenient for us.”

That's a very maybe unfair characterization that I'm making but it is definitely something that I've observed and I'm wondering, Annie, if you have had an experience where you've seen things like that as well.

Annie Little: Oh, absolutely. It's interesting, I'm stammering because I actually don't think I have any clients that I've worked with who have ADHD that have disclosed that they have ADHD to their employer because they're like, “That's not going to go over well.” They just know, “This isn't a safe place to be. I don't think that they would get it and I can ask for accommodations in different ways maybe.”

But I, of course, know lots of lawyers that have not been clients that have had bad stories about disclosing ADHD or stories where their bosses are just like, “Why can't you just do this?” or even their legal assistants or paralegals who were like, “What is wrong with you? Why can't you just do what I told you to do or whatever?”

But in some circumstances, I've been getting more and more, as I've been more open about this, people coming to me and saying, “Hey, if we were to let's say engage you to coach one of our lawyers who has ADHD, would you do that?” and I'm like, “Well, what are your goals? What's going on?”

There are some in particular that I'm just so blindsided by because usually, in most cases, there's an issue with billing time where it's either some combination of or one of the other that either they're not capturing their time. Clearly, they're working but they're not capturing all their time and/or they're not turning their time sheets in on time. It's usually a combo of that because they put it off, so then they don't remember everything, then it's late, and then it's not complete, all that kind of good stuff.

But there are some instances where they're like, “Oh, we really like this associate. They're really great. They've already billed 2000 hours and it's the beginning of Q4 or something.” I'm just like, “I'm sorry. What is the problem then? Because as far as I know, all law firms care about are billable hours. That is the metric. If they're hitting those and exceeding those, I'm sorry, what's the problem?”

They're like “Well, they're late a lot. They blow through deadlines without even realizing they've blown through deadlines. It's just a real problem,” and I'm like, “Okay. How are they blowing through deadlines without realizing it? No one else is following up on that deadline? Is anybody else checking in on that?”

Sarah Cottrell: That sounds like a you problem is what I want to say.

Annie Little: Right. I'm like, “It sounds like it might be an arbitrary deadline if she's blowing past it or he's blowing past it.” They're like, “Well, let me ask you this,” and I'm never talking directly to a lawyer, let me be clear on this, this is always talking to somebody who's in HR or something like that or some kind of development and they're like, “Well, they want this person to show up to meetings on time. They need them to be more hands-on. They need them to be more independent and they need to be able to handle these things without any handholding.”

I'm like, “Well, is it handholding to follow up on a deadline that you set?” I don't understand why I wouldn't just be like if I gave an assignment to someone and I needed it by tomorrow, I'd follow up with them tomorrow if I didn't hear back. I was just so confused. I think at least in one instance I said, “So it sounds like this practice group wants to fix this person or cure this person's ADHD?” and they're like, “Yeah, they probably would.” I'm like, “I can't do that.”

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah, also that's literally not a thing.

Annie Little: That's the end of that conversation. It's as roundabout as I'm explaining it to you because people are like, “Well, where are you going?” and I'm like, “Well, where are you going? We've already established they're making money for you.” Of course, there are other situations where their billables aren't on track but I don't hear about as many of those because the firm or the organization is just like, “Well, this person isn't even worth fixing. This person isn’t even worth our time, energy, and money.”

Sarah Cottrell: I was going to say because the firm isn’t willing to put money towards it.

Annie Little: Coaching, to even try to help them because they're just a complete lost cause. I'm like, “Well, it's different when they're billing, when they're hitting their billables.” That's where I'm coming down is that the gap is that there need to be some accommodations in management style and in administrative support because what they're alluding to, in a lot of these cases, are things that involve executive function.

Sometimes working memory deficit is a factor. I will just say these were all things that I now know affected me as a lawyer as well. Along with that, there might be some other ancillary things like auditory processing. I have issues with that. Some people have dyslexia, dyscalculia, or something like that. But I find that neurotypical people are like, “Well, these are just life skills. If you can't show up on time, you're bad and that's not going to work.”

It's like, “Well, there's also time blindness where a nervous system literally cannot detect the passage of time which means we're also horrible at estimating how long it will take us to do something.” But guess what, there are ways to help with that, so many different ways that we can help with that but it requires the support and involvement of management.

Sarah Cottrell: Yes. One of the things that I think is really important for people to think about when we're having this conversation is how much, especially law firms, especially large law firms, but really law firms of all sizes, don't rely on best practices in terms of project management in order to get things done and what the reasons for those are, and how that can impact someone, particularly someone with ADHD who could benefit from accommodations.

By that I mean a lot of what you're describing is like, “Hey, if someone is missing some deadline that you imposed, maybe you could,” and I know I talked about this with Lauren on her episode, like instituting more regular check-ins or having some person, external to that person, have some followup or some interim deadlines.

All of these are things that yes, would be helpful for someone with ADHD but also would be helpful just in general. Well, there are a lot of different reasons why I think this doesn't happen but honestly, one of the things that I have seen is that instituting more formal check-ins or, God forbid, a project management system where you actually put things in black and white that shows what you're signing, to whom, when it's due, and all of that creates a level of accountability on the part of supervisors, partners that there's a lot of resistance to it because it would disclose the fact that most lawyers are terrible managers basically.

Annie Little: They don't know what they're doing. They don't ask for help.

Sarah Cottrell: Yes. I think this is part of the problem when you end up in a situation where a law firm is wanting to “help” a lawyer who has ADHD provide coaching or other things for them. Often, there's too much focus on how can we make you not be you, not just like how can we support you but how can you not have the brain that you have? Which, by the way, we're also benefiting from because there are challenges with ADHD but there are also benefits, basically, how can we make you not be that as opposed to what are the things that we can do to make this environment better to make it more supportive? The whole idea of accommodations is that you are creating an environment that is more supportive for that person, not just trying to make them not be who they are.

Annie Little: It reminds me of the way they treat burnout, same thing. Somebody forwarded me an email from their law firm the other day, just screenshotted it, and was like, “Hey, this is how we're celebrating Mental Health Awareness Month. We bought these webinars, you can check out. Call this number if you're feeling sad or suicidal ideations and stuff.”

Sarah Cottrell: Right. Meanwhile, we know we have abusive people working in our partnership ranks but we're just not going to do anything about that because what impact could that possibly have on people's mental health?

Annie Little: You're the one who's burned out. You deal with it.

Sarah Cottrell: Honestly, I know as I'm talking about this, clearly, there's a lot of snark. I know this is true for you too, I just feel so strongly about people who are in those kinds of environments hearing how ridiculous it is because you're in it and it feels normal.

Whether you have ADHD or whether we're just talking about mental health or whatever, so often, the entire system is geared towards not supporting you, not actually making the environment a supportive one for people to work in general but making you feel like you're a failure if you are not just able to do everything on your own regardless of the toxicity and the failures in the structure in which you're working.

Annie Little: Yeah. Something that some people have raised to me, I would say the ones who are the most disturbed by this, I have people in law school that will sometimes contact me because they're like, “I have ADHD. You know, ADHD is protected under the ADA as a disability,” and I'm like, “Mm-hmm,” and they're like, “So legal employers need to provide accommodations,” I'm like, “Yes, ostensibly, they do.”

They're like, “Yeah, if they don't provide accommodations, they're violating the ADA.” I'm like, “Yep.” She's like, “So they'll fire me and then I can sue them.” I'm like, “Yeah, do you have resources for that? Resources that match theirs?” One thing that continues to really boggle my mind is how bad of offenders law firms and legal employers are when it comes to employment law, so bad.

I experienced it in a lot of different [ways], because there are so many ways that they can do it. There's gender and there's sexual harassment, there's pregnancy, there's disability, there's all that kind of stuff. Remember what it's like when you come out of law school, you're like, “I'm a lawyer and I know what to do. I tell people what to do and they do it.” It's like, “No, it's not how it works.” I'm like, “Yeah, if they fire you because you have ADHD and they don't want to make accommodations, they have violated the ADA more than likely, and what are you going to do about it?”

That's basically their position like, “You want to come after us?” No. They'll use bad-faith arguments anyway. They'll be like, “Well, you weren't capable of doing the job. Under the ADA, you have to be able to do your job with or without the accommodations and the accommodations just make it easier for you to do your job but you couldn't do it.”

Especially when it comes to billing, it's like, “Well, our business model is on billing, and if you can't bill ours, it's not going to work out, guys.” I said that to one of these people and their jaw just dropped.

Sarah Cottrell: I remember myself as a law student and you're like, “But surely people follow the law who are lawyers,” and then you become a lawyer and then you're like, “Wow, this is a grim, grim place,” which is not to say that there aren't many lawyers who do great things, and of course, there are many lawyers and law firms who do follow the law but the reality is that there is this cost-benefit analysis that has been made in some circumstances.

I think another piece of it too is while it may affect people with ADHD in a set of particular ways that are specific to them having ADHD, honestly, this is how most firms are anytime whoever decides that they want to let someone go or they're not happy with someone's performance, the number of conversations that I've had with people, not people who specifically have ADHD, just people who have especially been quietly let go by their firms where in so many cases, they can't just say, “Hey, we don't have the business” is often turned into “There's something wrong with you. This is happening because you deserve it” as opposed to just like, “We're not equipped to continue to have you here because of the volume of work we have or because we're not willing to change any of the ways that we function,” whatever other often ridiculous reasons.

If you are someone with ADHD and you are in an environment like that, I think it's really important for you to hear how toxic that is, how much it can feel like you really are the problem, and how the problem is so much bigger than you. It's the systemic problems with the way that the firm manages work, manages people who manage people, which doesn't make it easier I don't think but it can at least help you understand why things are happening the way they are. Does that make sense?

Annie Little: Yeah. As you were talking, I was like, especially I imagine for people who have had a diagnosis, say they were diagnosed in their teens or their 20s and they're not someone like me who was 40, but there's something that when you do get a diagnosis and you start understanding the differences between how your brain operates versus neurotypical brains, they talk about how the world has been created by neurotypical people.

We live and operate in a world that was not designed for us. It was designed for nervous systems that operate very differently for hours and so being basically told that we're the problem is really just a baseline. We're used to that. Anyone who has ADHD will understand this. You always feel like there's something off and then the people where you don't feel like there's something off, it's probably because you find out they have ADHD too. That's our baseline.

But then a lot of us, referencing that episode we did on why people with ADHD are attracted to the legal profession, not only are people with ADHD attracted to the legal profession, they're good at it. It's challenging just like anything else but challenge is one of the things that drives motivation for ADHD and so you start to feel validated like, “Hey, I'm actually really good at this and I'm getting positive feedback for what I'm doing in more ways than I ever have before.”

When it comes to getting to a point where you do need more support in some way because maybe you had a kid, parenting is a big thing that really complicates your life and can exacerbate symptoms of ADHD, and so you're like, “Okay, I need to request that I have two hours of do not disturb time each day. That's the accommodation I'm going to ask for” because that's something you can ask for.

They don't have to give it to you but just an example of something very simple and you wouldn't even have to say it's because you have ADHD. If you go to someone, you say, “Hey, I am really finding that I'm unable to get a chunk of two hours of time to do some deep work that needs to be done on these matters or whatever. I know that when I have those two hours for deep work, I'm good to go. Can we institute a system where I put ‘do not disturb’ on my calendar, everyone can see it, people don't come into my office?”

That kind of thing and to have someone be like, “No,” and that's the end of the conversation, you're like, “Right. Right back to me being the problem. I asked for something totally unreasonable because no one else on the planet would ever benefit from something like that,” and then we go back to our usual shame spiral that generates our stress hormones, but at least, we can get our work done.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. Basically, the point of all of this is that if your law firm is trying to fix you because you have ADHD, chances are that's not the right approach, and in fact, the law firm needs to fix itself is really what I'm trying to say. Would you say that's a fair encapsulation of what we're trying to say, Annie?

Annie Little: Absolutely. This is something that we talk about in a career context too where sometimes the entire firm is terrible but your group might be great. The people you work with in your little pod, they might be okay. This also doesn't have to be formally going to HR and saying, “I have ADHD, and here's my documentation.”

It might just be like going to the person that assigns the bulk of your work and saying, “Hey, I am fine coming into your office and having you give me an assignment verbally. But honestly, my working memory is shite and even if I'm taking notes, I'm noticing that I'm probably going to be missing something. So I was wondering if it would be okay if when we do assignments, you give them to me verbally if you want to, I'll write them down, and then I will send you an email confirming what I think you told me to do and that you can respond and say yes, that's what I said or correct it and say, oh, nope, I actually wanted you to do this. Or I love getting assignments by email so if that's easier for you or if there are situations when you can send it by email, I welcome that.”

You can just say, “I'm finding that I'm not doing my best work and I think it's because I have a hard time with verbal instructions.” You can even say, “I'm just really visual.” I realized that's what I said because I didn't know that I had auditory processing issues and working memory deficits so I was like, “I'm just really visual.” My requests for that accommodation were not honored but it wasn't a formal thing.

But those are the kinds of things you can say to just the people around you. Or if you have an assistant, you can be like, “You know what, would it be okay if I added you to my calendar reminders? Would you be willing to buzz me on the phone when that alert comes up? Because sometimes I don't notice it or I can't pull myself away from what I'm doing but I do know that when my phone rings, that jolts me out of whatever I'm doing.”

That can be a way to pull you out of hyperfocus or it can be a way to pull you out of paralysis where you need to initiate a task, especially one if you've set a reminder for. Some assistants will be receptive to that and some won't. Also, can I share a bright spot on this?

Sarah Cottrell: I would love that.

Annie Little: Because somebody sent me an email just the other day and it was like teary-eyed emoji as I was reading it because I'd never had someone tell me this, I don't doubt that it happens but I think that they're a senior associate in Biglaw and they said they're on my list and so I sent an email newsletter about “Hey, this is what ADHD can look like at work but here's what's really going on. We're not being lazy, blah-blah-blah.”

She said, “That was really validating to see because I've been working for a partner who has ADHD for years and he's open about it. I've learned what works in terms of if I need to get his attention or if something really needs to be done, just telling him I really need this, it's important, it's not going to be enough, and it's been great.”

She’s like, “I don't know if this is on your list of things to do but I've been coaching our shared paralegal on similar things,” because the paralegal was just like, “Well, I told him this needs to be done so I've done my job,” and I'm telling her, “Well, yeah, but his brain just doesn't respond that way. That'll work on me but it won't work on him. Here's what I do and it works.”

I was like, “Are you kidding me right now?” That takes managing up to a whole next level but I think what's also so lovely about it is that this partner who has ADHD, he absolutely appreciates her because nobody else has ever worked with him that way before so I emailed her back and I was like, “This is amazing. You're my hero. Thank you so much for doing that and for sharing it with me. I just hope that he has an open tab for you at Starbucks or whatever is comparable for you.”

She said, “Well, he doesn't have the thing at Starbucks which I would love but he did advocate for a big raise for me. Let's be real, that's even better.” That requires political capital and I'm like, “That's amazing.” I would love to see that kind of dynamic in reverse.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. Lest you think that you might be asking for something ridiculous from your law firm, keep in mind we are not that far removed from a point in time where some of the things that were considered reasonable were legal assistance printing out every single email older partners received because they wanted to read them on paper as opposed to on a screen.

Annie Little: Or dictation, dictation because that is actually an accommodation for some people with ADHD. They're verbal processors. I went to my second firm and everybody there dictated, even the younger attorneys. I was like, “That's hard.” But that's why it drives me nuts because I look at that where it was basically Word processors were becoming mainstream and there was a large contingent of lawyers that were like, “I am not going to learn that. I already know that this is how I work best. It's working and so I am going to dictate.”

Cool, that's great. But there's a little difference. You could learn to use a Word processor. It's not that you can't, you made a choice there. Then when people ask for accommodations because of a disability, they don't have the option of learning how to do it in another way, they're telling you, “This accommodation is going to make it so that I can do my job better, which is going to make life easier for me and for you.”

I'm just always looking back, I'm like, “Dictation. Are you kidding me? That's a classic accommodation. Amazing.” That was just because “No, I don't want to learn computers.”

Sarah Cottrell: Oh, man. Good times. I have hope. I have hope for the next generation. Gen Z.

Annie Little: And Millennials.

Sarah Cottrell: And Millennials, that's true. Is there anything else that you think that people should know about this topic?

Annie Little: One thing, because actually, I was talking to Lauren Ascher, you did a great episode about accommodations and I was on her podcast. We were talking about the EEOC (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission). They have a page on their website, you can just Google it, that's how I found it. It's all about accommodations for lawyers with disabilities.

It's so lovely because they have examples of requesting certain accommodations and they put them in outlined boxes so they're easy to find and then they go through different fact patterns and be like, “Would this be a violation of ADA? What happened here? What should happen next?” all that kind of stuff.

I did a control F, they do not say ADHD anywhere. However, they do have a lot of examples that refer to accommodations that are requested based on symptoms of ADHD. One was slow processing and somebody was requesting being able to verbally do stuff and record meetings, which is actually something that should be done for a lot of people that would be helpful for.

But it's just great to go through and you can see that it's actually been hammered out, thought out by the EEOC. These are the things that the ADA protects for lawyers. Go check it out because you'll see that a lot of these are changes to supervisory styles.

Sarah Cottrell: Yep.

Annie Little: It's amazing because when I was thinking about that, I'm like, “Well, those are the accommodations I would ask for but I'm a heated career coach with ADHD. Maybe I'm just being unreasonable.” We all come back to that. We're like, “Oh, maybe I'm being unreasonable.” I'm like, “Look, it's huge and it's got footnotes.” I clicked on footnotes and there's a whole other page that's about accommodations for people with psychiatric disorders or disabilities. I can't remember how they phrase it.

There's some overlap there but I mentioned this, Sarah, to you at some point and I said that even now I never even considered that my generalized anxiety disorder would be covered by the ADA. I'm like, “Wow.” Lest you think we're just being like, “Hey, go get some accommodations.” It's hard, we get it, but there's a lack of imagination for me sometimes about what could be possible. The EEOC, just Google EEOC ADA protections for lawyers with disabilities. It's just a chef's kiss. I couldn't believe it. Lauren was like, “Yeah. That's good. That's a good one.

Sarah Cottrell: I love it. We'll definitely link that in the show notes. I feel the upshot of this is basically if you're wondering if the problem is you or your law firm, it's probably your law firm and not you.

Annie Little: Like 99.999% of the time.

Sarah Cottrell: Yes, virtually certain you are not the problem. That's pretty much where we're going to wrap up this episode. Annie, thank you so much for joining me for these episodes. I really appreciate you having these conversations with me. If people want to find you, where should they go?

Annie Little: You can find me at thejdnation.com. That's my website, and on LinkedIn, just Annie Little, search for me in there, especially during October, it's ADHD Awareness Month. Tons of stuff happening in there.

Sarah Cottrell: Awesome. Thanks.

Thanks so much for listening. I absolutely love getting to share this podcast with you. If you haven't yet, I invite you to download my free guide: First Steps to Leaving the Law at formerlawyer.com/first. Until next time, have a great week.