Sarah Cottrell: Hi, and welcome to The Former Lawyer Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Cottrell. On this show, I interview former lawyers to hear their inspiring stories about how they left law behind to find careers and lives that they love. Let's get right to the show.

Hello everyone. This week I'm sharing my conversation with Nicole Abboud. Nicole practiced family law and then fashion law and then she founded a media company that helped lawyers and law firms market their services through content marketing and digital marketing, and now she blogs and she teaches. You'll hear all about that in the interview so let's get right to it.

Hi, Nicole. Welcome to The Former Lawyer Podcast.

Nicole Abboud: Hi, Sarah. Thank you for having me.

Sarah Cottrell: Let's start with you introducing yourself to our listeners.

Nicole Abboud: Sure. I guess I'm a slashy as I've heard people describe it where I feel like I do a few different things that complement each other but I can't really describe it in a succinct way. But I am a leadership speaker, I'm a new blogger, which is something I'm excited about. I'm a former podcaster myself and well, surprise, I'm a former lawyer as well.

Sarah Cottrell: Okay. Let's talk about your podcast briefly and then we'll go all the way back to the beginning. Can you tell us what your podcast was about? Well, I know, you let our listeners know what your podcast was about.

Nicole Abboud: I love my podcast. That's my baby. My podcast is called The Gen Y Lawyer Podcast. I recently wrapped up after about four and a half years of hosting it with one year where I took a year off. Someone else came in and hosted it but I recently wrapped it up. It was focused on young lawyers basically, so millennials and what they were doing to find happiness and success either as lawyers, so in the profession, or outside, those who decided to leave.

Sarah Cottrell: Got it. Okay. Let's go all the way back because you hosted a podcast about lawyers, but you are a former lawyer so law school, what made you decide that you wanted to go to law school?

Nicole Abboud: Yes. We are starting from the beginning, aren't we? Growing up, I experienced all the typical cliched reasons as to why I should become a lawyer. I had family members tell me I should because I argued, I talked a lot. But from a personal level, I always wanted to help people and I really thought that going to law school, becoming an attorney would put me in the best position to do that. I knew I would obtain a certain level of authority and power to really make a difference in people's lives and there was something about the law that just attracted me.

Of course, I didn't know anything about it like most kids but I put it in my head at an early age that I wanted to become an attorney. Sure enough, I did. I ended up going to law school and I loved it. Law school was fabulous. I didn't know what to expect because while growing up, I didn't know any lawyers. I'm the first lawyer in my family, in my extended family even, my parents didn't have any friends who were lawyers so I really went to law school just with this blind faith that this is something I really wanted to do. But yeah, I loved law school. Then I became a lawyer.

Sarah Cottrell: What type of law did you practice coming out of law school?

Nicole Abboud: I actually started off in family law which was perfect because that's actually what I wanted to do. I graduated in 2011 so I was at the tail end of the recovery from the recession basically. But there really weren't that many jobs still. I actually managed to find a part-time job, a part-time position as an associate at a family law firm. I remember thinking how grateful I was to even have that part-time job because so many of my friends who graduated with me still couldn't find anything just by trying.

I started off in family law, I did that for about three and a half years. With that same firm, I also did civil litigation in business because my employer did all of those. I got a little bit of experience in all those areas but it was predominantly family law.

Sarah Cottrell: Okay. You said you did that for about three and a half years, at the end of those three and a half years, what did you end up doing?

Nicole Abboud: He was a solo practitioner, my employer. At the end of those three and a half, he actually wanted to shut down the practice. Since it was just me and him, he actually offered to sell the practice to me. But seeing how most of the clients were family law and I had grown to hate family law over those years and also I just didn't think I could actually purchase the practice from him, I decided to open my own practice at that point because I found myself at a crossroads.

I didn't want to do family law. He was shutting it down. At that point, I thought I could either try to go and apply elsewhere, work at another firm, figure out what else I could be doing or I could do what I've always wanted to do, which is be my own business owner and start my own practice. At that point, which was around 2014, I believe, maybe 2015, I left that firm that shut down, I opened my own practice, and when I was thinking about what I wanted to do, what practice area I actually wanted to cover, I thought it would be really interesting to work in an industry that I've also always loved which is fashion.

So I looked into how can I combine this love for fashion or the industry itself with my knowledge of the law. At the time, fashion law as a practice area was coming into its own, I suppose, more people were doing it, more lawyers were doing it and so I decided, “You know what, not would that let me scratch that creative itch and combine my legal knowledge, but it's also a very sexy thing in terms of marketing.” I thought if I said I'm a fashion lawyer, it's not very common. So yeah, I opened my practice, I hung up my shingle, and I told the world I'm a fashion law attorney.

Sarah Cottrell: I love that. I want to hear more about that but first I have a question for you. You said you had grown to really dislike family law and I'm sure there are people listening who are either working in family law or have thought, “Maybe I would like family law,” so can you talk a little bit about how you went from that being the area that you were interested in to realizing, “Oh, wait, actually, this is not something I want to be doing”?

Nicole Abboud: Yeah. Actually, it would be unfair to say that it was just family law that I grew to dislike over the years, it was really the law in general. It just happened that I was practicing family law. But to those who are considering that specific practice area, it really does take a special type of lawyer to do family law. I'm sure every practice area or every lawyer in the practice area thinks the same about theirs. But with family law, the clients are a little bit needier, they're a little bit more irrational in what I found, which rightfully so, there are a lot of emotions. It's very hard to find a middle ground when it's two spouses arguing, especially if kids are involved.

For me, it was a little bit too much. It's not something I really want to do. At the same time that I was experiencing family law and learning more about it, I really was experiencing something else which was just a nagging feeling about being a lawyer in general. About a few months actually into becoming a lawyer, let's back up actually, remember how I said I loved law school, I loved everything about it? I graduated, I took the bar, I passed, and I was on cloud nine like I was finally going to be a lawyer.

I started practicing and a few months into practicing, I started getting this weird feeling where I just dreaded going to work. It wasn't the law firm I worked for because that was great, that was fine, but I would just every day get this weird nauseous feeling and anxiety every time I went into the office. At first, I just thought, “You know what, I'm a new lawyer, this comes with the territory. I don't know what I'm doing. There's a huge learning curve.”

But this feeling persisted for a very, very long time. Luckily, because my employer had different practice areas, I spoke to him about it. I told him, “You know what, family law, I don't think I really want to do it so let me do more of the civil litigation. Let me handle more of the business transactional stuff.” He agreed and I started doing more transactional work thinking that would ease the nauseous feeling in my stomach or the knots that I had every day when I went into the office. But it didn't. That too persisted.

Slowly but surely, it actually started really affecting my way of living, I suppose. I would go home after work and instead of going networking or doing something social, which is what I would usually do because I'm just a social person, I would legitimately just go home and watch TV for hours. I didn't want to talk to anyone. I lived alone at the time so I didn't have to talk to anyone but I would just watch TV, I would just sink into my couch and stress eat basically.

I just transformed into someone I didn't like and someone who definitely wasn't me. I knew that something was off. I knew that it wasn't just because I was a new lawyer, there had to be something deeper. It took a few years for me to finally realize that it was the practice of law, it was being a lawyer that I didn't want to do, and I was having this internal battle of, “Okay, this is what I studied for, this is what I wanted all my life, but crap, this is not what I thought it would be. Now, this is the rest of my life?” I think that's what it was. It wasn't just family law, it was the entire practice of law. It just took me a while to realize that.

Sarah Cottrell: I really appreciate you sharing that. I had a really similar experience where at first I thought, “Oh, maybe it's just litigation. Maybe a different practice area would be better.” Eventually, I realized, “Oh, no. It's just I am not suited for the practice of law.” I've also shared with a podcast that after I left the law firm, I was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, which was also a complicating factor. But it was, as you might imagine, exacerbated significantly by the lifestyle of a Biglaw litigator, not great for those types of issues. I think that's really helpful.

I'm wondering at the time, so looking back, you can see that it wasn't just the specific practice area, it was law, but when you were at the end of that three and a half years and trying to decide whether other to open your own practice or purchase your employer's practice, at that point, were you still thinking, “Maybe it was just a practice area,” or were you starting to think, “Oh, maybe it is law in general”?

Nicole Abboud: I actually had already started to think it was law in general but I didn't want to, I hate to describe it this way, but I didn't want to give up just yet. I thought, “You know what, I want to give this my best shot.” I think the thought of opening my own practice re-injected some energy into me and it gave me hope. It made me feel like, “You know what, maybe if I'm more on the entrepreneurial side, if I do more of the business side of things, I can find that love that I thought I had for the law.” It gave me a new lifeline for at least a few more years I thought. Because it was such a different practice area that I was transitioning into, that too gave me hope.

I thought, “You know what, this is one area I haven't tried and I love the fashion industry, so why would I not love the legal side of it?” It renewed my hope, for a little while it extended it. But at that same time, right around the time that I launched my own practice around 2014, like I said 2015, that's when I actually launched the podcast as well, the one I mentioned earlier, The Gen Y Lawyer, I think that was born out of my curiosity of what else I could be doing while I still attempted to be a lawyer in my own practice.

Sarah Cottrell: Got it. Let's talk first about fashion law and what exactly it was that you were doing in that space and then I would love to hear how the podcast grew and evolved while you were also running your own practice.

Nicole Abboud: Fashion law, like I said, sounded super sexy to me at first but honestly, it's just a lot of the typical legal matters that most lawyers deal with. No matter how you like trying to make it sound, it's just law in the end. But I was doing a lot of transactional work. I did a little bit of copyright litigation but it was mostly trademark registrations. I did a lot of contracts, business entity formations, and again, all the clients, or at least a good 90% of them were somehow in the fashion industry.

Because I live in Los Angeles, I tried to immerse myself in the industry a little bit more by going to a lot of events where I knew fashion designers would be there or fashion startups. It was a lot of just the transactional work that startup fashion designers would need.

To answer the second question about the podcast, this feeling that I described in the beginning, this nagging feeling that I could not shake off but I could subdue for short periods of time by changing practice areas, starting a new firm, it kept creeping back up no matter what I did even with my own practice. Once the novelty of opening a new firm wore off, that feeling came back. Around that time I was blogging. I was content creating and I knew that was a great way to market my law firm so I thought, “You know what, let me see what other types of content creation exist,” and I stumbled upon podcasts.

I think it's because I had just updated my app and I saw the little purple podcast icon on my iPhone so I started exploring podcasts. I remember thinking, “Well, first of all, I think I can do this. I think I'm fairly good at talking and this would be a great way to not only showcase my personality in a way that writing can't really do for me, but how amazing would it be to actually reach out and speak to other lawyers across the country and see what they're doing, see what they're doing to find happiness?” Because I knew that I couldn't be the only one.

So I started reaching out, I found more and more lawyers who were willing to share their stories. At first, it was a little bit hard to find people to come on the show because podcasts were so new, or at least there were much newer than they are now. Now they're everywhere. I just wanted to reach out and speak to people, hear their stories. I think the more I heard other people just courageously share how they made the decision to transition out of the law or to leave a Biglaw and open their own practice or whatever they did to find their place in this world, the more I got the courage to do it.

It took a long time to not only muster up my own courage to leave, but through my podcast, I started gathering ideas of what I could do. It's great that I can leave because I'm not happy but what's next? What else can I do? I say the podcast saved my life. I know it's super dramatic but it really did because it came at the right time and it also just gave me the tools, the connections, and the language that I was looking for and maybe even the permission I was looking for to finally leave and just actually follow my passions or follow what I really want to do.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. I think there are so many lawyers out there who have that same question that you're talking about which is what do I do next? I know for me, part of what prevented me from immediately recognizing like, “Oh, yeah I want to leave was that I really had no idea what I would do next.

Nicole Abboud: I still don’t know what to do next.

Sarah Cottrell: And I do think that just hearing people's stories of what they have done is so helpful. I've already heard from so many people, lawyers who are listening to the podcast and are saying, “Oh, this gives me hope because I hear these stories of what people are doing.” I think that your observation about that is right on.

I'm wondering at what point in your process of starting your firm and then also the podcast, how long was it before you realized, “Hey, maybe I don't actually want to be running my own practice in the long term,” and how did that fit in with the podcast? Were you planning to run the podcast as a business? Were you planning to do something else entirely? Tell us all of the thoughts that you had.

Nicole Abboud: All the thoughts, let's see if I can try to even remember them. It was about two years after the podcast started that I finally quit, it was January of 2017. I told myself that I would wait until I had two clients for my new business. I'll share what that was at the point. But I told myself once I have two clients, I don't know, totally arbitrary, that's when I would start wrapping things up, shutting down, not taking on any more clients, doing all the things that I need to do to leave the law.

When I thought about what I could do, when I finally decided, “You know what, the law is not it. What else could it be?” I went through a long period of self-exploration and just doing research online, watching videos, listening to other people's podcasts, and just whatever I can get my hands on, anything that would help me figure it out.

I don't know if anything really gave me the answer. I think a lot of us hoped that these things that we’re consuming just tell us what we need to do. I even considered reaching out to a career coach or someone to help me to give me the answer and I never had a definite, “Oh, this is it. So it's not law but this is your path.” I never had that moment. But what did happen was I started connecting with a lot of people, a lot of other lawyers online through the podcast but also just through my own networking on social media, on different platforms online. I met a lot of lawyers and many of them started reaching out to me for help with their branding and their marketing just unofficially.

They would reach out, they would ask questions about podcasting, they would ask questions about building a brand. Because at that point, I had carved out a little niche for myself. I'd made a little bit of a name for myself in the legal profession as someone who knows how to create good content. As more and more lawyers were waking up to this notion of using content to market their practices instead of paying for links, SEO, or any of that stuff, I had them reaching out, more and more started reaching out to me asking me for help. I took that as a sign that maybe this is what I should do now.

I never thought of it as, “This is what I'm going to be doing forever,” or “This is the solution to the problems I had as a lawyer,” but I knew that was a sign to at least do that at the moment because I was getting a lot of lawyers reaching out to me. At first, I did it for free because I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know I should charge for it.

When I really thought, “What else could I do?” I looked to what the market was telling me and I decided to open a marketing company at first, it was branding and marketing. There was a lot of consulting at first and then over the years or over the course of two years, it evolved from just consulting to more of a production company.

We started producing videos and podcasts for lawyers specifically. I knew that market. I found another niche for myself in the marketing realm working with lawyers but I wanted to go even further, deeper so I chose podcasts and videos. We did that for about two years until the end of last year, actually December 2018 when I decided to take a step back again and take it from production back to consulting. I started doing more high-level consulting with law firm leaders and helping them set up their marketing plans, helping them implement them.

Now I still have a few production clients that we're still creating the podcasts for, but it's mostly consulting. I never mentioned the business name which is Abboud Media. I guess a long way to answer your question is I listened to what people were asking me for and I decided to make that my business.

Sarah Cottrell: Which is a really great way to develop a business.

Nicole Abboud: Exactly. Just listen to what people are asking for. Also, I don't have a marketing background. My undergrad degree is in political science so I didn't realize that was an actual feasible path for me until I did it myself, did it fairly well I think. Then, like I said, people started asking me for help. Anyways, that's how I discovered it. I just followed what my strength was at that point.

Sarah Cottrell: This episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast is sponsored by my free guide: First Steps to Leaving the Law. Look, I know that there are a lot of unhappy lawyers out there who are overwhelmed at the thought of leaving the law and literally don't know where to start. You can grab this guide and take the guesswork out of it. Go to formerlawyer.com/guide and start your journey out of the law today. Seriously, you can get it and start today.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. It's interesting, I think I probably know what you think about this but I find that people very frequently, lawyers are very focused on wanting to know the specific job that they should go and do that's not law. It's often, in a way, being presented in a way where they're asking essentially, “What is the one thing that I should be doing that is not this thing that I'm currently doing which is law?”

I'm completely 100% sympathetic to that. I am not saying, “That's just ridiculous. Who would ever think that way?” because that was me 100%. But I have found that the more I talk with people who have left the law and the more I go through my own experience, that it's less about finding that one perfect career. Although obviously, yes, you do need to find something to do unless you're independently wealthy.

Nicole Abboud: I was going to say if you need money, that's what you got to do.

Sarah Cottrell: But there's sometimes this inordinate amount of pressure put on, “Oh, well, now I need to figure out the one right thing because I thought the law was the one right thing and it wasn't. But there must be a one right thing out there.” What are your thoughts on that mindset? Because I think some of the stuff you just said touched on that and it would be interesting to hear what you have to say.

Nicole Abboud: I think it's a human condition to just struggle with uncertainty, for a lot of lawyers especially because it's, for the most part, been such a certain and clear path to the law, not an easy one but for most people, for most lawyers, either they've known they wanted to become attorneys or they were determined to become attorneys.

It's been fairly straightforward. I think thinking what could be beyond is definitely scary. I imagine it's true for other professions as well. But like I said, I think we like certainty as humans, we like knowing what we should be doing. The reason why motivational speakers are so popular is because I think people turn to them for answers, for motivation, but also for actual answers of what they should do.

But it's rarely that easy in life. I think a lot of things, especially our careers or what we should be doing, which is such a huge question that even 50, 60, 70-year-olds struggle with still, I think we look for an answer and there is no answer. It's really just about doing, exploring, and going on the journey, to putting one foot in front of the other and hoping that the path unfurls in front of us.

Lawyers, we like answers. I don't know, I guess we're just not very good with ambiguity so when it comes to something as big as what are we supposed to be doing, if we're not lawyers, that's a struggle and it takes time and a lot of self-reflection and self-awareness to just sit in that space of the in-between I suppose, or that space of ambiguity.

Sarah Cottrell: That's so true, especially to your point that it's the human condition to not want uncertainty and then there's the additional lawyer piece of being trained to not like uncertainty. I think the combination can be really challenging. What advice would you give to someone who's listening who finds himself in that situation where they are struggling with the idea of leaving because they don't like the uncertainty?

Nicole Abboud: I've actually gotten this question more than any other over the last few years and it's usually through long emails from listeners of the show where they share their stories with me and then they ask me, “What should I do?” Honestly, I never have an answer because I'm not a career coach. I don't even pretend to be.

I feel like my answer to all of them is usually just to go out and explore. There's no reason not to do research on what else you could be doing and that could include reading books just about if you have an interest in something, reading books about it, doing as much research, or it could be just talking to all sorts of people in different industries and different professions, anything that you could potentially be interested in.

I actually heard somewhere, I'm sure you've heard the common saying: follow your passions, I heard instead of doing that, instead of following your passions, you should really follow your curiosities. Anytime a lawyer asks: “What should I be doing instead?” or “I don't know what to do, I feel stuck,” I always start there, I always say, “What are you curious about? What are you actually interested in? And then go research it, go look into what are people in that space doing. Are they able to make money doing that? How are they developing and crafting careers out of whatever it is that you're interested in or curious about?”

I think more than anything, start doing research. Because there's so much information out there, this podcast is an amazing resource for people. There's no reason to feel like you don't know what a certain industry, another industry entails because there's information out there. I think that's the first thing I would say, do research.

The more practical answer is when I decided to quit and start my business, I wish I would have been a little bit more practical with the financial side of things or a little bit more aware of the realities of what it takes to build a business. For your listeners, it could be what it takes to transition to something else.

I think it's great to explore our curiosities, do the research but I think more than anything, make sure that financially you are saving but also putting yourself in a position to not be in desperate mode later. Because I think that's another thing that could suck people back into the law if they want to leave or back into whatever position they're in, not having the money to go and explore, to go and play and do research, and whatever they need to do.

Doing the research but also being practical and making sure that you can have your head in the clouds but make sure your feet are on the ground as well. Have that financial aspect to what you want to do set up already or if you're in the process of saving money and making sure that you can support yourself as you explore.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. Let's talk about that a little bit more because that is, of course, one of the main things that I hear from people all the time which is that from their perspective, the thing that's keeping them in the law the most is the money piece, the finances piece. How did you approach that in your position? I know that you just said you wish you'd done it a little bit differently. What things would you recommend and how did you handle that piece of thing? Because I know that for people who are listening, that's one of the things that they are often most concerned about or have the most questions about.

Nicole Abboud: And it's a real concern. It’s legit. I was not bawling at any meaning of the word. I worked for a solo practitioner and then for myself so it's not like I didn't have those golden handcuffs. It was a little bit easier for me to walk away. Again, remember, it was a part-time job with my employer and then I was on my own so it's not like I was making millions or even six figures, and all of a sudden I was like, “Ah, I'm going to take a cut and just quit.”

Let's be real, it wasn't that big of a difference for me but when I say I wish I would have prepped a little bit better, I think maybe because I was younger, I have as much responsibility, and I was so fed up of being a lawyer, I told myself, “Once I get two clients, I'm out of there.” But I think looking back, if I were to do something different, which of course, people say, “No regrets, I wouldn't change anything,” but if I were to change something, it would just be to continue to maybe have a few cases on the side, something that wouldn't take up all my time while I explored or while I built up my business.

I think I was just so over it, so exhausted, burnt out, and just mentally not able to focus on the law anymore that I just quit altogether. I think something that people can do is just try to, if possible, do both. Try to maintain your career, your position, or whatever you're doing now and then at night, when you get home or on weekends, go hard on whatever else you want to do until you're able to sustain yourself with that part-time job or whatever it is you're doing on the side.

I've heard a lot of people say that you should just jump and build a parachute on the way down and I think maybe that was a little idealistic when I was younger but now I'm just like, “No, that's not really practical. You still got to live. You still got to pay your bills.” So try to do a little bit of both until one of them overtakes the other.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. Obviously, I am very much in favor of people leaving the law and finding something that works better for them. But my own story is that I was in Biglaw, I was really unhappy. I knew that I wanted to leave the law eventually. But my husband and I both went to law school so that's a lot of law school debt and so we made a plan to pay down our debt before I left the law. Part of that involved me taking a job. I worked at a state appellate court for six years and that was the job that I left last year.

It was a situation where it wasn't necessarily the thing that I wanted to do forever but I always say that for me, it was the best legal job that there is. It certainly was not a Biglaw firm-level money but it was not just, “Chuck it all. I'm leaving the law altogether.” I'm not saying, and people shouldn't do that because I've talked to people who are all over the spectrum in terms of whether they just left or whether they had some long-term plan.

But I think it's a really important conversation because I think sometimes, people who are working as lawyers and are thinking about leaving feel like the options are very black and white literally like, “Leave my job today with no parachute or plan or stay as a lawyer forever and just accept that I'm going to be unhappy in my career. The end.”

Part of what I want to communicate to people is there are so many options in between. Especially if you have financial responsibilities even beyond your law school loans or whatnot, you can make a plan to get out that doesn't have to be, “I'm leaving today,” and that will work for you. I think that the observations you made about that were really helpful.

I also wanted to circle back, you mentioned the whole idea of “follow your passions,” and I completely agree with what you said because, on the one hand, I think it's great if you are super passionate about something that ends up being your career. But I think sometimes in the “pursue a career you love” space, whatever that space is, there is sometimes this idea that, “And you need to just love every moment of it and basically you need to monetize whatever it is that you love.”

I think it's important for people to think about, “Do I actually want this thing to be my career or do I just want it to be my hobby? Do I actually want this thing to be my career or do I just want it to be something that I love and find a career that is sustainable and works for me and allows me to do other things in my life?”

Especially as a lawyer, I'm not sure if this is something that you would identify with as well but I think sometimes, you take on the identity of a lawyer so much that you feel like you would have to turn the thing that you love into your career in order to do it because the law is crowding out everything else in your life. Like you were talking about, you were really unhappy and you just weren't able to do a lot outside of work because of how draining working as a lawyer was for you.

I'm saying to you people out there who are listening, hear me, if you're in a career that is not as draining to you, you have the capacity to do those other things that you love even if you're not doing them as a money-making venture that maybe you can't do when you're working as a lawyer and you're like, “This is sucking my soul and I'm just surviving.”

Nicole Abboud: Yeah, honestly. I think it just comes down to people's risk tolerance, and as the listener, you know yourself, if you think you're the type of person who, like me, when I was younger, just have to leave completely to free up that mental space to even figure out what else you want to be doing, then you know yourself, if you want to take that risk, that is fine. That's another thing.

Obviously, lawyers love avoiding risk but if that's what you need to do, then do it. That's okay because you will figure it out. I wholeheartedly believe lawyers are smart people and can figure out anything but I put a lot of faith in lawyers. I don't know if everyone would agree with me but I really think we can do anything.

If you're that type of person who has to leave altogether, you have to jump and you will build that parachute, then that's fine, otherwise, actually going back to, like you said, following your passion, sometimes your passion doesn't make money, sometimes your passion, you grow to hate it the more you do it or the more you try to force it into your full-time job or into your career. It's not clear-cut like that, it's just whatever you prefer.

Sarah Cottrell: I think that is so right. I think as lawyers, it can be easy to want to reach for the cookie-cutter solution because again, it's human nature to want to just know and it's very hard to let go of not knowing even if you're going from “I hate this but at least I know it is involved” to “I'm happier but there's a lot more unknown.”

Nicole Abboud: I think because, like I said, everything is so laid out for us from the moment we start law school, we know exactly what we're going to be doing, it's going to be either two, three, or four years, then we're going to take the bar, and then we're going to start practicing. If we work for a firm, we've got to work our way up.

Everything is so predetermined for the most part that once we get into murky uncharted territory, all of a sudden we get scared, and rightfully so but I guess my message is just remember that you can swim, you're going to be okay. You know how to swim and you'll find land eventually. This is a great metaphor that I just came up with but I'm so proud of myself right now.

I guess that's my advice. You will figure it out. It might take a month, it might take a year, it might take up to five years. Who knows? But you will eventually get it. If you don't get it on the first try, you'll get it on the second and all of that is okay. All of those options are fine. You're going to be fine.

Sarah Cottrell: I think that is fantastic advice. Is there any other advice that you would give for people who either are working as a lawyer and they're like, “I hate this. I need to get out,” or even they're working as a lawyer and they're more in that stage that you talked about where they're just thinking, “Oh, maybe this isn't what I should be doing. Maybe it's not just that it's this particular job but that I don't want to be in the law,” is there any other advice that you would have for people in those positions?

Nicole Abboud: Yeah. I think something that we forget to do or we’re too maybe embarrassed to do as lawyers is to talk about these things. I think even if you're entertaining these thoughts of wanting to leave, you should start talking to people about it and not just anyone. Don't just go to networking events and start talking to random lawyers about it, but talk to your friends and your family, talk to people in your firm that you trust or colleagues. I think the more you can put it out there, the more you can speak it, put it out into the world, the closer you'll get to the end goal I guess.

Just for a little example of why I'm such a believer in speaking it into existence I suppose, a few years ago when I was still practicing, I used to go to networking events when I opened my own practice because I knew that was the best way to get clients. I'd go to a lot of lawyer events and this one time, I met another lawyer, we bonded over the fact that we both didn't enjoy practicing.

I remember he shared with me how he wanted to start this business and he told me all about it and I told him how I really wanted to teach as well. That's something I've always wanted to do, teach a class or so. We met that one time and we stayed connected on Facebook but we didn't really talk after that.

I remember about two years after meeting him, he reached out to me again out of nowhere and he said, “Hey, I don't know if you remember me. We met at that networking event and I remember you telling me you wanted to teach. Well, I actually teach right now at a college and we just had an emergency opening because the adjunct professor dropped out and we need someone to fill it. Do you want to come teach this class for the semester?”

I ended up teaching for about two years at that community college. It was a bunch of legal classes for the paralegal program that I taught. But I got that opportunity just by speaking up and sharing the fact that I wanted to teach one day. It was just like an idea that I had. It was a feeling that I wanted to do it and I put it out there, I shared it with this guy, this random guy that I met at a networking event. Sure enough, he remembered me and offered me that position.

I think that if you're thinking about leaving the law or just doing anything else, start talking. I think maybe there must be some energy in the words that we put out into the world so just start talking about it and sure enough, things will start to shift and hopefully shift in your favor.

Sarah Cottrell: I think that's really good advice. I think that sometimes people are held back by the fact that it's shocking the number of lawyers who think that they're the only one who feels the way they do about their job and wants to leave. I've talked to so many people who have said, “Knowing that there are other people out there who left the law makes me feel like I'm not alone. I basically thought that I was alone and I was the only person who was crazy enough to think about leaving this all behind.” There are a lot of people out there who feel like you.

Nicole Abboud: Oh gosh, so many people. I got a lot of different reactions when I first quit and announced that I was quitting and I got all the typical reactions from older attorneys, from the more experienced attorneys. A lot of them thought I was crazy and I was rash but sure enough, the more people found out I left, every time I run into attorneys who'd been practicing for 30, 40 years, they were in their 60s, 70s, they actually told me that they regret not leaving. They actually wanted to switch but at that point, they just thought it was too late.

You could tell they were unhappy still practicing law but that was it for them. You'd be surprised that there are lawyers of all ages who wish they could leave or wish they can transition and do something different but they feel trapped. You're not alone. People will root you on, will cheer for you, and you will definitely find other lawyers, even if you listen just to this podcast and reach out to the guests on this show, you will find people who are walking this path as well.

Sarah Cottrell: That is so true and I think like you said, it just starts with actually talking with people. I think sometimes sharing something with someone else can make it more real for you also. Nicole, is there anything else that you'd like to share or that we haven't covered as we're coming to the end of our conversation?

Nicole Abboud: Well, sure. I'll share a little bit about what I'm doing now just to further elaborate on how I'm constantly evolving as well. Because like I said, just because I left the law and then started a business doesn't mean I know what I'm doing or I'm set on what I'm doing. After two and a half years of running my business, I do still have some clients but I actually recently started looking for positions on campus, I do want to go back to teaching because I really did love it and I started blogging again because the podcast ended after four and a half years.

Again, I find myself starting somewhat all over. Granted I have a whole new set of skills and a lot of new connections that I made while I was building my business, but I feel like I'm again trying to explore what else is out there for me. This time around, it's a little bit easier to do it because I'm familiar with the unknown and I've gotten comfortable with it, but now it's a matter of learning to calm my mind as I wait for whatever is coming.

First, it was just I felt like I had to know the answer, and now it's more of, “Okay, can I wait for it to come to me?” Now I'm blogging and I'm blogging at nicoleabboud.com. If your listeners want to go and check it out, actually I've shifted back to fashion so I'm writing about style, courage, and self-expression as told through the clothes that we wear, I talk a lot about sustainable fashion and just finding our creativity and self-expression through our clothes. If anyone's interested, go check that out.

Sarah Cottrell: That's so cool. I know you already mentioned your website but if people want to connect with you on social, where can they find you?

Nicole Abboud: Instagram is one of my favorite platforms at this point and if your listeners want to just see the outfits that I'm posting and just follow along behind the scenes of how I'm still running the business but also trying to figure out this in-between moment or phase of my life, Instagram is the best place and that is @nicoleabboud_. Aside from that, I'll give my email as well if people want to reach out to me directly, it's [email protected].

Sarah Cottrell: Awesome. I will put all of that in the show notes. If you're listening and you want to get that information, you can just go and grab it on the website. Thank you so much, Nicole, for talking with me today. This was such a good conversation and I really appreciate everything that you shared. I know it's going to be really helpful for people.

Nicole Abboud: I hope so. Thank you so much for having me. You're a great host so thank you.

Sarah Cottrell: Thanks so much for listening today. I absolutely love getting to share these stories with you. If you haven't yet, subscribe to the show, and come on over to formerlawyer.com and join our community to get even more support and resources in your journey out of the law. Until next time. Have a great week.