Sarah Cottrell: Hi, and welcome to The Former Lawyer Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Cottrell. On this show, I interview former lawyers to hear their inspiring stories about how they left law behind to find careers and lives that they love. Let's get right to the show.

Hello everyone. This week I'm sharing my conversation with Marissa Geannette. Marissa worked in Biglaw for almost eight years, and now she works as a writer. She does some freelance writing. She blogs at The Unbillable Life, which I just think is a great website name. She has an ebook coming out with advice for junior associates in law firms so we're going to get right into our conversation.

But first I just wanted to let you know that I have created a Facebook group for lawyers, former lawyers, and listeners to this podcast. The group is a closed group and it's for anyone who is interested in the conversations that we've been having here at Former Lawyer. I also share some additional videos, workshops, and things like that in there that aren't available elsewhere. If you're interested in joining, just go to formerlawyer.com/community and you'll get the information there or, of course, you can always just search it on Facebook. Okay, let's get into the episode.

Hi, Marissa. Welcome to the podcast.

Marissa Geannette: Hey, Sarah. Thanks so much for having me.

Sarah Cottrell: Why don't you introduce yourself to our listeners and let them know a little bit about you?

Marissa Geannette: Sure. My name is Marissa Geannette. I graduated from law school in 2009 and I was a Biglaw associate in New York City which is where I still live for seven and a half years. I left my law firm in 2018 and right now I'm a writer. I do a bunch of things. I freelance for travel and personal finance sites among some others. I'm a few weeks away from self-publishing an ebook, hopefully, on advice and tips for Biglaw junior associates. I have my own blog called The Unbillable Life. That's me in a nutshell. Nutshell for right now.

Sarah Cottrell: I love that. Just for listeners to know a little bit of the background, I think I was thinking about this morning, I'm pretty sure that Twitter recommended your account to me under my Former Lawyer social media a couple of months ago. This was back when you were still blogging anonymously. I was like, “Oh, this is super interesting. This person clearly, we're on the same wavelength.” Do you want to talk a little bit about that and then we'll go all the way back to [inaudible] after that?

Marissa Geannette: Yeah. I started my blog and I've created a little Twitter account for it. This was about a year ago. I started it anonymously because I didn't really know where I was going to take it. I didn't know exactly what I was going to write about other than that I knew I was going to write about my experiences in Biglaw, leaving Biglaw, and what my life has been like since. For me, I was still nervous in thinking about what people are thinking of me and what would people think why I left this career, like for what? For nothing? So I decided to do it anonymously to get myself started.

About a year into it, I had built up enough courage and confidence in myself, my writing, and what I had done that I didn't feel the need anymore to hide behind this anonymity. I just did a little post maybe a couple weeks ago just introducing myself and writing the reasons why I had done it anonymously and why I was just ready now to be like, “This is me. I used to be a lawyer but I'm doing other things now,” and just be able to share my story more.

Sarah Cottrell: I love that so much. You were a lawyer, you're not a lawyer now, this is The Former Lawyer Podcast, so let's talk a little bit about how that all happened. What drew you to law school in the first place?

Marissa Geannette: Yeah. I was thinking back on this and not a ton of thought went into it.

Sarah Cottrell: I can relate.

Marissa Geannette: Yeah, I think a lot of people have a story, I went straight from undergrad to law school. Were you also a straight through person?

Sarah Cottrell: Yes, I was.

Marissa Geannette: Yeah. In college, I don't really remember making the decision or exactly why but it just seemed a good idea at the time because I loved school, I loved college, it seemed like a way to extend college even though I did know at the time I wasn't totally unrealistic. I knew it wasn't going to be as fun and it wasn't going to be like college but it's still a school. I was good at school and I knew I would like it. I was actually right. I did enjoy law school for the most part.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. Literally everything that you're saying I'm like, “Yes! Yes! Check.” I was thinking about this the other day. I don't know whether this was the case for you but for me, I honestly didn't even know how much money lawyers made. I knew law was a profession. I didn't know any lawyers personally and so when I went to law school, not only did I feel like the decision, I don't really remember an inflection point where I made that decision. There was no calculus of, “Oh, and then I'll have the possibility of making X amount of money,” which now looking back, I just think like, “What?”

Marissa Geannette: Yeah, no, same exact thing. I was a Biglaw associate for almost eight years and I didn't know what Biglaw was until I was probably spring semester of 1L year when it was people were talking about OCI, and it was just like, “Oh, you submit your resumes to these firms” and I just went, “Okay, this is what we do,” so that's what I did. I took on a bunch of student loans but I didn't have a plan as to how to pay them off so I'm very grateful that the Biglaw opportunity was there because then I was able to do that. But looking back on it, I was super naive in that there was no plan.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. So you got to law school and OCI was coming up and you did the whole OCI thing. By the time you're graduating from law school, was there a specific type of law that you had decided that you were interested in or were you just going wherever the firm that you'd summered with needed someone? How did that process of figuring out what you're actually going to do with your legal career work?

Marissa Geannette: Yeah. I put a little more thought into that, I would say, than choosing to go into Biglaw. I spent the summer working in both corporate and litigation and I realized that litigation was definitely not for me. I just wasn't interested in going to court. I didn't think it really fit my personality so I chose the corporate group. But beyond that, there wasn't much choice in what I ended up doing, which was that I ended up in the capital markets group of a Biglaw firm in New York City. I worked on securities offerings mostly representing big banks who were structuring the offerings and I ended up there because I got an assignment just from the pool of assignments, really liked the partner that I got the assignment from and eight years later, I was a structured finance attorney. That's how that worked out.

Sarah Cottrell: At what point in those eight years did you start to think, “Hey, maybe this isn't what I want to do for the rest of my life”?

Marissa Geannette: It wasn't until a bunch of years in and thinking back on it or towards the end of my time at the firm, I realized that I wanted to leave when I came to the realization that I wasn't really motivated to work for the clients. I felt when I was a junior associate, I think a lot of people will hear this that yes, of course, you have clients but your clients are essentially the partners that you're working for and I worked for an amazing couple of partners who were super supportive and actually the reasons why I stayed on my job for so much longer than I ever would have imagined in the beginning.

But then that changed when I became more senior and less oversight from the partners and the clients were the actual clients, these bankers, and there was nothing wrong with them, I just didn't feel like there was any connection or motivation to do great work for them. That got me thinking, “Well, why am I here? Why am I doing this work and what's the purpose of me being here?” It was probably when I was about at sixth year, I would say.

Sarah Cottrell: Okay. I'd love to talk a little bit more about that process in terms of how long it took from the point where maybe you started thinking about it to when you really were like, “Oh, yes, this is what I want to do,” and then you actually left. Because I know there are a lot of people who are listening who are maybe somewhere in that process and feel a little bit lost. I say this speaking from my own experience where, at least for me, I started to realize I maybe didn't want to be a lawyer forever, but it took me a while to even admit to myself that was the case. Then there was the process of figuring out “Okay, what do I want to do and how do I put a plan in place to make that work eventually?”

Anyway, everyone I know has to go through different things because they have different factors in their own lives and also just different considerations in terms of how self-aware they are. I was maybe not the most self-aware in the beginning, so talk to me a little bit about the timeline and your process, and did you find it easy? Did you find it difficult? Did you work with someone when you were doing that or work through it on your own? I just love to know more details about that.

Marissa Geannette: Sure. I took a long time to work through that process. I think there are a couple people in my life, I'm thinking of one of my law school friends in particular, that he probably thought I was leaving my firm for the last six years because I would always say it but I think he was probably the only one that I was open that it wasn't really for me, everyone else I think was pretty surprised because I really did work through it for the most part myself because I did go through a lot of back and forth. I was getting positive reinforcement that I was doing a really good job so I thought, “Okay, well, I guess I'm doing a good job, I should stay, and why would I leave?” There wasn't exactly something I wanted to leave for.

I waited until I just was super stressed out and I just couldn't really take the client demands anymore. Then I ended up leaving about a year after that. I wrote a blog post on my site about reactions people came to me after I left and I called it, someone said to me, “Oh, you just ripped the band-aid off, you just did it, and then you decided and you left,” and I was like, “Oh my gosh, if that's how it looked from the outside, the inside was the opposite, it was slow or tortured.”

Sarah Cottrell: The opposite of that is everyone out there.

Marissa Geannette: Exactly, and I was like, “Wow, that's what it looked like to you,” but inside it was the very opposite of that which I would not recommend.

Sarah Cottrell: No, I think it often can look that way to people because by the time you get to the point where you're really sure you're going to do it, then it is maybe a relatively quick process. But what people don't see are in many cases years of figuring out what do I actually want? Do I actually want to leave? Am I engaging in magical thinking of, “Oh, well, if I leave the law, then everything will be perfect” as opposed to just all of those things that you need to work through.

I think sometimes people look at someone who's left the law and their perception is, “Oh, it was just so easy for them, they just knew they should leave and they left. I'm not sure whether I should leave or it seems really complicated and messy so I must not be like that person.” I think you would agree that that's not really the reality for most people who end up leaving.

Marissa Geannette: Right. I would think that's the small minority. There are just so many different factors you have to consider whether it's your financial things, health insurance. Once you can work through those things, then it's the mental part and you're stuck with that and you're stuck with working through that, which is the really hard part, which I think some people can get through quicker. But I think the norm is that it's harder to get through.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. I'd love to talk about that more. There are a couple things that most people talk about in terms of what is holding them back from leaving their lawyer job. One is the money student loan finances piece. You mentioned being able to pay that off because you were in Biglaw for a longer period of time. But another one that is extremely common—and this is what you were just referencing—is this combination of identity as a lawyer and also this question of what will other people think, which I think that you have a lot to say about because, of course, you talked about originally starting your blog anonymously and then eventually deciding not to be anonymous anymore.

Can you talk about what your thought process was there in terms of how people reacted? Because you mentioned that a lot of people basically didn't really know that you were someone who might want to leave and, of course, you also thought through what people would think related to the blog and being anonymous. Tell me more about that for people out there who are thinking about leaving and maybe that's something that's a struggle for them.

Marissa Geannette: Sure. I guess related to having what other people would think about when I left, it was I was very preoccupied with what people would think at my firm, and just for the people out there who are thinking about maybe doing a similar thing, to give them some hope, I got just overwhelming encouragement and support from it. There was an IP partner that I worked tangentially with and he wrote me a very nice note about how I was taking a different path and he was proud of me. I didn't get any negative responses. I'm sure people talked about it. I'm sure I got some eye rolls and “Oh, she's so crazy, what's she doing?” but it was just a much more positive reaction than I thought it would be. That was super reassuring.

But leading up to my departure, I had all these thoughts about what people are going to think, what people are going to say, and then after I left, you're so right about the identity thing, I was as a Biglaw associate for so long that when I left, I did miss having the identity and the easy answer when you meet a new person, “Oh, what do you do?” and then you just say, “Oh, I'm a lawyer” or “I'm an associate at a Biglaw firm” and then when I left, I struggled a lot with “Okay, what do I answer now?” I'm finding myself that I'm in my 30s, this is like I'm too old for this, so it took me a really long time to be able to confidently say that sometimes I mentioned that I used to work in Biglaw or that I'm a lawyer but I'm not practicing anymore but it's just much easier now to talk to people about what I'm doing and not feel ashamed about it or I'm doing something wrong.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. I think it's so common—I honestly don't know because, of course, I only know my own experience—I don't know if it's more common for lawyers or if this is just how people are in general but I think it's so common to have this “Well, who am I if I'm not a lawyer?” Even if you're unhappy in your lawyer job, it becomes a big part of your identity. Like you said, when you meet a new person, very frequently one of the first questions is “What do you do?” and “I'm a lawyer” is really easy straightforward, don't have to be like, “Well, I'm having a right possibly quarter/whatever life crisis,” or “I'm doing these three different things,” which not that there's anything wrong with that, but I think people who are drawn to a lawyer job also really like to have that neat and tidy answer with the neat and tidy path.

When you decided to leave, tell me more about what you were planning to do in terms of your exit plan.

Marissa Geannette: Sure. I didn't have too much of an exit plan which I think is what let me develop into what I'm doing now. Like I said, I was lucky enough to work in Biglaw for so long that I was able to pay off my law school student loans through that and I had saved up some money so I knew I was going to be okay for a certain amount of time without taking another corporate job or another nine to five. I knew for a couple months at least or a year that I would be fine so I didn't actually have a plan.

I think this is one thing that a piece of advice I would give people is that a lot of time when I was leading up to it, I had a lot of discussions with people, some that I trusted their opinions a lot that they would say, “Don't run from Biglaw if you're not running towards something,” and I didn't have anything I was going towards so I was like, “Oh, my gosh, I have to stay in Biglaw because I don't have this identified government job that I've always wanted or going back to school for a certain thing that I've always wanted.”

That held me back in Biglaw and I just would tell people that if you are secure enough financially for whatever that means for you, whether you have student loans or not, as long as you are comfortable with how you're going to pay them back or how everything is affecting your life, then you should leave when you think it's the right time. You don't have to leave for something that's already identified because once you have the time away from that job, you'll have the space to open up to figure it out. Reflecting back, that was my plan. But when I left Biglaw, it was really like I'm at the juncture in my career. I don't want to go for partnership. I don't know what else I want so I'm just going to get out of here for now and see where that takes me.

Sarah Cottrell: I think that's such a helpful point because I do think there's this tendency—and I think it's especially strong amongst lawyers—to say, “Well, I need to have a known path going out of Biglaw or legal practice of whatever type in order to leave.” I was just talking with someone else in a recent interview about this, often there's this like, “Well, there's one right thing I'm supposed to be doing and I thought it was law but it's not, so now I need to figure out the one right thing. Until I figure out the one right thing, I can't do anything, I don't deserve to do anything,” or whatever mindset situation is happening there.

I think to your point, that is probably not the way most people should be approaching the question. It's not necessary for you to figure out the one right thing that you're supposed to be doing which isn't law and is going to be the thing that you do forever. You really just need to know what your next step is. Do I want to leave and what is my next step?

Marissa Geannette: Absolutely, because if you think about it, if there was this thing you wouldn't really be agonizing about leaving, you would probably have left or have done that before. I think for a lot of us who it seems we have similar stories in that, maybe we went to law school and just let the career path take us for a little bit. Go to law school, get a job, and honestly never really sat down and thought, “Oh, this is what I want to do with my life, so why after X number of years as a lawyer will you suddenly know without putting any experiment time or thought into it?”

Sarah Cottrell: Yes, I totally agree. Tell me what your life looked like right after you left the law firm.

Marissa Geannette: I'm still in New York City right after I left. I definitely gave myself some time. I had a ski trip my boyfriend planned, so we did that. I let myself just clean out my apartment, visit with friends and family, just do things that I had been neglecting a little bit in my time in Biglaw. Then I wanted to work, I just didn't want to work back in a corporate office so I started just dabbling in different things, that's why I started my blog. It wasn't for money but it was still an intellectual thing that I was doing, learning how to set up the blog. I love to write, so doing all the posts.

Then I realized that, “Okay, I could also freelance write and actually make some money doing that.” Then I started writing, putting my thoughts together into a book on real advice and some real world examples for junior Biglaw associates because I had so much thoughts in my head from my time in Biglaw that I just wanted to get down on paper. My day-to-day was just very free-flowing which was a nice break from what it had been for so long. Then it's been a year or so later already and this is where I'm at.

Sarah Cottrell: I want to take a quick break here and talk to all the unhappy lawyers who are listening. It's so easy to complain about how much your job sucks but feel too tired and overwhelmed to do anything about it. The only problem is that means you stay stuck and unhappy with no end in sight. You're not alone. So many lawyers get stuck in this paralyzing cycle. That's why I created The Former Lawyer Jumpstart. It's designed to help you ditch the overwhelm and accelerate your progress towards leaving the law for good.

Inside, you'll find a step-by-step process for going from “I don't want to be a lawyer anymore but where do I start?” to confidently moving towards your goal of leaving the law. I've got you covered. Want to stop feeling like you'll never get out? Go to formerlawyer.com/jumpstart and buy it today.

Tell me more about how you found your freelance writing jobs and what those jobs entailed. Because I know that there are a lot of lawyers who don't like to write but there are definitely a lot who do and who might be thinking about some freelance writing or just freelancing of some variety and so I'd love to know more about what that process was like for you.

Marissa Geannette: Yeah. There's such an interesting world out there that I have no idea about. I think when I was a lawyer, I thought, “Oh, I like to write but I'm not a writer so that career is not what I'm doing.” Then when I started looking into it, there were just tons of job board sites that you can look at. Having my blog actually really helped me a lot because they like to see a writing sample, in my mind, it was like, “Well, I don't have any writing samples from some Glamour Magazine or Travel + Leisure Magazine so I'm never going to get this assignment,” and then if you just apply, you send some samples, you have to apply and get rejected a lot but there are plenty of opportunities out there that if you search for them on these boards and stuff, you'll definitely be able to find some things that will actually pay you.

Sarah Cottrell: That is so cool. Are you doing any writing about legal things? Are you writing strictly about things that have nothing to do with the law?

Marissa Geannette: Yeah. For myself I'm doing just things that have nothing to do with the law. From travel to some personal finance, that's what interests me, what I have the most fun writing. I am doing some ghost writing that is legal related so I do get to still use my legal skills maybe about 10 hours a week which is nice because it's a steady stream of income and just keep using my law degree for something, so that's been good.

Sarah Cottrell: That is super cool. How did you find that type of work?

Marissa Geannette: I connected with the woman over Twitter which was another example to prove to myself that I should not be anonymous and should put myself out there a lot. I guess I'm just a more reserved person and not used to social media. I don't use it a lot in my personal life so I felt weird interacting with people on Twitter or just commenting on blog posts and stuff. Then once I started doing it, I realized that's how all these opportunities come up.

If you're someone like me who's laying back and maybe lurking a little on social media, I would definitely advise to just put yourself out there and get in touch with people, whether it's for a career opportunity or just you wanted to chat with them or like to chat with you about your story and things like that. People should definitely go for it because sometimes people don't respond, but for the most part, that's how you network with people in this other world that's not the legal world, which was very new to me.

Sarah Cottrell: I think that's such good advice because I think—and I don't know if this was the case for you—but the lawyer world works a certain way. For example, social media, for some practitioners and in some areas, they are using social media frequently but if you're working especially at a bigger law firm, social media, even though we're in the social media age, is not really a thing, certainly not with respect to your career/business development typically. I think it can be challenging, I don't want to say when you're out in the real world but when you're out among normal people doing other jobs that are not lawyer jobs, this is how people connect. It's not weird, it's not all just cat videos or whatever.

Marissa Geannette: Exactly. It was definitely a learning experience for me and then if you just hide behind or just read people's things whenever, comment and never reach out because you think, “Oh, why would they write back to me?” you're just missing out on a lot of opportunities for yourself.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. I think that's so right. Do you miss anything from your Biglaw days now that you're not a lawyer?

Marissa Geannette: Yeah. By far I miss the friends that I made at the firm, which sounds cheesy but I was a summer associate there. I worked there for eight years and I just met a lot of people that I became actual friends with both at work and then outside of work. I just miss the daily ease of the “Oh, we get lunch together, we get coffee breaks, we go to happy hours.” That's the number one thing when people ask me what do you miss, I just say it's my friends at the firm. I still see them, it's just much more of a production to plan outings when you're not seeing them on a daily basis. In the beginning I definitely liked the thrill of closing a deal but that wore off towards the end of my career so I missed the actual legal aspects of it way less than the personal ones.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. If you're working solo or you're a freelancer, it can definitely be an adjustment when you go from working in an office to working by yourself, whether you're introverted or extroverted, it doesn't really matter. It is a big adjustment.

Not that it's a bad one, but like you said, just be, “Oh, I'm going to randomly grab coffee with someone because I ran into them in the hall,” or these kinds of things that you don't necessarily think about as part of your job, because they're not, but they are things that make make up a significant part of your working life and your actual life.

Marissa Geannette: Definitely. I would also like to say that I do miss the money which I think it's okay to say just that it was nice to get that paycheck. It's been an adjustment to use up some of my savings and then be working pretty hard at trying to carve out a new type of work and a new career for myself. But it's not a big loss salary so it has been satisfying to be able to see that I can make money myself, but not going to lie, the Biglaw paycheck was nice to get.

Sarah Cottrell: Yes, for sure, when I left my Biglaw job, I went to a legal publishing company and so it was a six figure pay cut. It was intense. I do not regret it at all but it's a real thing.

Marissa Geannette: It is an adjustment and something to take into consideration when you are thinking about leaving.

Sarah Cottrell: That is definitely true. Talk to me a little bit more about this book that you're going to be publishing. I'd just love to know also if there are other things on the horizon that you are thinking of doing in addition to your freelance writing or just what your plans for the next six months or a year are.

Marissa Geannette: Sure. For my book, like I said, I wanted to use the knowledge that I had gained over being an associate of every single level of Biglaw associate for eight years and just use the knowledge of all the things that I've seen and also been guilty of doing wrong and how I could share it with current Biglaw junior associates or also law students who are looking for some material to prepare themselves for Biglaw.

I had read some books before and definitely got some helpful advice but I wanted to offer some more real world advice and give some more examples, hopefully give some helpful tips on how to navigate some tricky situations, like how to take a vacation as a junior associate and not have all the senior associates super mad at you for leaving them with all the work which is [inaudible] unless you actively prepare for it and the things I wouldn't have thought about when I was a junior.

Things like, they always say, “Oh, my door's always open. There are no dumb questions,” but in Biglaw, there definitely are so that was my idea. I have 25 different topics and I just love for it to be a guide for people who are starting out to maybe navigate some of those trickier situations that aren't necessarily, “Oh, this is how you do doc review or this is how you are supposed to write a memo,” just the non-actual legal work aspects that take up a huge part of being a junior associate in Biglaw.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah, and really affect your success in many ways. Once you have a certain base level of competency on the technical legal stuff, it's those other things that will affect much more how your performance is perceived.

Marissa Geannette: Absolutely. Yeah. I assume that you'll learn the technical stuff on the job but there are some other things that might be more helpful to learn ahead of time so that you don't learn it on the job because you messed up and they tell you messed up, or even worse, they don't tell you messed up and you just have to figure out that something went wrong.

Sarah Cottrell: Yes.

Marissa Geannette: Always the favorite part of being a junior lawyer.

Sarah Cottrell: Oh man.

Marissa Geannette: Are you having flashbacks?

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. For me I was only in for three years, and people who listen to the podcast know that for the last six years of my legal career I worked at a state appellate court so it's been a while, but even so, there's always the Biglaw flashbacks. Talk to me about what you think people should be thinking about if they're in a position, not necessarily a Biglaw but maybe a Biglaw, but just in a position where they're like, “I don't really like this. This is not really working for me. I want to get out but I don't know what I want to do,” what would you recommend that those people do?

Marissa Geannette: Yeah. I think that in between feeling where you're lingering in the “I want to get out but I feel stuck” is just the worst part and you just have to force yourself to take a step, and whether that is talking to someone like you getting some of your resources, what I did, there were a couple podcasts around but I turned to podcasts and a lot of books about pivoting leaving jobs and I just searched for stories of how people had escaped something that they didn't want to do. I just gathered so much evidence I guess that it was going to be okay and I just gathered and gathered.

I think I was looking for proof that it was going to work out for me until I realized that you're not going to get that from other people's stories, of course, other people's stories are amazing resources and you can either connect with them or just listening to their stories is so helpful as the evidence that you could probably do it too, but you need to just get over that mental block and take that one action step, whether it's reaching out to someone who's already done it or giving yourself a deadline that, “Okay, this is it.”

Just trust in your gut that when you think you've got to get out of your legal career or whatever, maybe it's a different corporate job that you're in, that it's going to be okay, you can do it. I kept telling myself, “Okay, you can always go back if you want to,” but I don't know anyone who ever does but if you can tell yourself that, maybe it'll make it a little bit easier.

Sarah Cottrell: Yes. I think that's really good advice. Do you have any other advice that you would give to people who are either miserable being a lawyer and want to get out or even just starting to feel like, “Hey, maybe this isn't actually what I want to be doing. Maybe I do want to think about doing something else but I may be afraid to even admit that to myself,” do you have any other advice that you would give to people in those positions?

Marissa Geannette: Yeah. I would say that if you are unhappy at the job that you're in, definitely don't hide it and keep it only to yourself. That's something I wish I hadn't done, I wish I hadn't hidden how much I was really unhappy at my job, and I wish I had opened up a bit more to people maybe outside of my firm that I wasn't enjoying it. Instead, I covered it up so I didn't have that many outside voices supporting me saying, “Oh, there are so many other things you can do, what I do, what my husband does,” so definitely share, maybe you're not comfortable sharing it with the people at your job but if you have any inkling of “Maybe this isn't for me,” talk to someone about it, whether that's just a friend or if you get a coach, a therapist, just someone else out there.

Then I would say if you don't know what you want to do like me, at least, see if you can come up with a plan that would give you some time off to figure it out, whether that's asking for a couple months sabbatical or leaving and thinking, “Okay, in six months, three months, or whenever, I'm going to look for a different Biglaw job.” But once you're really unhappy where you are, I think it's just time to admit it to yourself and make that plan for getting out.

Sarah Cottrell: I think that is so, so important. I know for me, getting more margin in my life by going to a job that was not as demanding of my time as Biglaw was pretty much essential for me to figure out what I ultimately wanted to do because I just personally did not have the bandwidth to think through that in a reasonable way when I was in Biglaw.

I think often people, going back to this idea that they think they need to figure out the one perfect thing, the one right thing that isn't the law which they thought was the law that they should be doing, I think that creates a lot of pressure and frankly is not necessarily something you're going to be able to do if you're in a job, particularly a job that has a lot of demand on your time. You need some margin and white space to be able to think.

Even in my case, I went to other legal jobs, just legal jobs that were not Biglaw which were ultimately stepping stones to me leaving the law entirely. I think for people who are listening, if they're really, really miserable to the point that you just made, think about ways to make a plan so that you can figure out what you want to do. It doesn't have to be this all or nothing, “I'm going to leave the law and do something completely different” necessarily, you may want to just try to adjust and get into something that's a little bit more sustainable and that can also be a great way to give yourself the time to actually think and figure out what you want.

Marissa Geannette: Yeah. I know. I totally agree. I think the common thread in our stories is that we both gave ourselves the space, whether it was you just took a step down on the demands of your job, which gave you more time to think and then I just reached my breaking point and got quit entirely, but there's a happy medium, you can do whatever's right for you as long as you give yourself a little bit of space to think about what you do want to do and not make yourself decide “This is what I will be for the rest of my life” while you're still in something that you're not happy with.

Otherwise, you might just be stuck at that thing forever and you'll wake up and you're still a Biglaw lawyer or you're still just a lawyer in general and that's not what you wanted to do. There's always time to get out and so you should do that when you feel it in your gut that it's your time.

Sarah Cottrell: I think that's so right and you don't want to put so much pressure on your job like, “Well, being a lawyer makes me unhappy therefore I need to find the job that will make me perfectly happy,” that is way too much pressure to be putting on your career because ultimately, even if you do find a career that you are happier with, that works better for you, there's a difference between that and I'm unhappy now and somehow I'm going to find something in which I will never experience unhappiness.

That's also something to watch out for I think because I know that I have seen people who assume that all of the bad things in life are coming from being a lawyer, which if you're unhappy as a lawyer, it does feel very terrible, but you don't necessarily want to get into this headspace where you're thinking the only problem in your life that you need to fix is being a lawyer and once that's fixed, then everything will be blissful and perfection because we're still human, and again obviously, I'm not saying don't leave the law, I'm very pro leaving the law but I think that is definitely something that people need to hear.

Marissa Geannette: Yeah, I absolutely agree. It will fix or it will make that career part a little bit better and you'll feel like you made the decision. But obviously, it doesn't make everything perfect or your life perfect because you're no longer a lawyer, that far from it. But it is a good step if that is something that is making you unhappy.

Sarah Cottrell: Yes, for sure. Marissa, are there other things from your story that you would like to share as we're getting towards the end of our conversation or just anything else that we haven't covered yet?

Marissa Geannette: I guess I could touch just a little bit on my blog and what I write about. Hopefully, if it resonates with someone, either someone who's in the law looking to get out or someone who's already left, just another voice out there that's saying “I did it too and it's okay.” It's theunbillablelife.com. I created it because I felt like when you're in the law and you're billing so many hours, that's just such a focus of your life. To me, a huge part of my life that I was missing was what I call the unbillable time which is the time where you spent not working. I wanted to recognize the importance of this time, whether you're in your job still or you've left it and you have all this time to fill it with more fulfilling things.

I would just let people know that there are plenty of resources out there for people looking to leave the law, and even if you're still in it and you're struggling at that point of, “Oh, should I stay? Should I leave?” you can still make the conscious choice when you're in the law to make time for yourself and take advantage of that unbillable time. It's a little bit harder to do when you're working at a job that maybe takes up all your hours or that you're not super happy at, but if you make a really, really conscious effort to do it, it can be done while you're in the job as well as after you've left it.

Sarah Cottrell: I love that so much. I love it so much. See, this, listeners, is why when I found Marissa's website, I was like, “Oh, this is amazing, someone else who is on the same wavelength,” so you should definitely check it out. Marissa, do you want to share the address for your site again and then any other places that people can connect with you online?

Marissa Geannette: Sure. Where we connected first, Sarah, was on Twitter, which I am trying to be more active on and I'm just The Unbillable Life at Twitter. If you follow Sarah, you can find me. My website is theunbillablelife.com. Also, you can just feel free to shoot me an email with any questions about what life is like on the other side. Any questions, anything like that.

Sarah Cottrell: That's so great. Thank you so much, Marissa, for joining me today. I really appreciate you sharing your story.

Marissa Geannette: Oh, thank you so much, Sarah. It's been super fun to chat with you.

Sarah Cottrell: Thanks so much for listening today. I absolutely love getting to share these stories with you. If you haven't yet, subscribe to the show, and come on over to formerlawyer.com and join our community to get even more support and resources in your journey out of the law. Until next time. Have a great week.