Sarah Cottrell: Hi, and welcome to The Former Lawyer Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Cottrell. I practiced law for 10 years and now I help unhappy lawyers ditch their soul-sucking jobs. On this show, I share advice and strategies for aspiring former lawyers, and interviews with former lawyers who have left the law behind to find careers and lives that they love.

I'm really excited to be re-releasing this conversation with an anonymous Collab member that I first shared about a year and a half ago. I thought it would be a really good way to round out this month of clients, hearing from my clients, hearing about what it's like to be in The Former Lawyer Collaborative, which, as I'm sure you know by now, is my program for lawyers who are wanting to figure out what it is that they want to do that is not practicing law. I'm really excited for you to hear this conversation so let's get to it.

I am super excited to let you know that a new round of the Guided Track is going to be kicking off in February. So if you've been thinking about working with me to figure out what it is that you want to do that isn't practicing law, now is a great time. First of all, what is the Guided Track? The Guided Track basically takes the Collab and everything that you have in the Collab, the community on Circle, the curriculum The Former Lawyer Framework, all of the replays of the various events, panels, workshops that we have had in the Collab, etc., so it takes all of that. In addition to that, what you are doing is you are going to be working with a small group of lawyers.

This round is capped at six lawyers. What we're going to be doing is we will meet weekly for 10 weeks. We’ll first have an orientation call, then we'll meet weekly for 10 weeks, and you will be following an action plan that I've created to help you move through the Former Lawyer Framework in those 10 weeks. We'll have weekly calls where we will meet and talk through what you've worked on that week, what questions have come up. As a member of the Guided Track, you also get a 30-minute one-on-one call with me to use it whenever you want during the Guided Track.

You also get some free personality assessments that I recommend in the framework. You also get a free CliftonStrengths 34 Report and a half-day virtual workshop with a certified CliftonStrengths coach. This workshop is a favorite of past participants of the Guided Tracks. It is incredibly helpful in terms of understanding what you bring to the table, in terms of both soft skills and talents. It also provides you with a lot of language and ways to talk about who you are, the way that you work, and why a non-legal employer should think about hiring you for their role.

If you're someone who wants that weekly accountability, that small group support, the ability to get on live calls with me and a small group of other lawyers to talk through all of these things as you're working through them, what you are looking for is the Guided Track. Go to formerlawyer.com/guidedtrack and you can sign up there. Enrollment closes on Friday, February 17th, and we get started on Monday, February 20th. The calls will be at 8:00 PM Eastern on Mondays starting February 20th and will run through Monday, May 8th. If you want one of these six spots, go to formerlawyer.com/guidedtrack.

Okay, I am super excited for you to share your experience so let's just jump right into the questions. The first question that I would love to hear about from you is where were you before you joined the Collaborative? What made you look for something like that and ultimately decide to join?

Collab Member: Well, I'm a partner at a law firm and I've been working for 12 years. Honestly, I graduated like you around 2008 so I essentially had summered at this firm, I didn't enjoy my summer experience. The people were great but I actually remember specifically thinking to myself “This is not what I've got to do at all.” When I graduated, I had planned on going to New York and my friends who had jobs in New York were laid off before they even started.

I ended up taking my New York Bar anyway because I'd already paid for it and I was studying for it. But after that was done, I really didn't know what to do so I had received a call from partner at the firm who said there was this big case they were working on and if I wanted to work there for six months just to get my feet in the door, that could happen and I did it and I stayed because I didn't really know what I wanted to do. The people were nice enough so I just kept working.

I think 12 years goes by and you're sitting there and you're going, “How did this happen, especially being a partner, especially being in charge of six other associates?” Basically the day that I found your podcast, which led me to the Collaborative, was the day I had a partnership meeting and I've talked about this on the Collaborative before, I bring in one of their top five clients at the firm and handled those cases from beginning to end.

My partner who was my mentor and was my boss before that, he had developed the client, but with me we were able to really make this client our number one, we were their number one go-to firm. During the meeting when they were talking about the money that was being brought into the firm, the managing partner basically just kept stating that this client was my partner's client and didn't say anything about me, nothing. It was just, let's just call him Tim, “Tim this. Tim that. Tim that.”

I always hated partnership meetings for this reason because it is a boys club where I work but this was just a huge slap in the face because for years, I've been bringing in a million plus dollars with this client, I'm the one who says “We need more cases,” they give me more cases and then some other things happened at the meeting too that were essentially along those lines and I Googled alternative careers for lawyers and came across your podcast and started listening ravenously to your podcast. That's where I was at basically.

Sarah Cottrell: I'm sure a lot of people who are listening can relate. When you saw the information about the Collaborative, what about the program specifically was appealing to you?

Collab Member: Since I've always worked at this firm, there was a few times in my life where I would put together this horrible resume and send it out. I was applying for other law jobs that were probably, I'd like to say same trailer different park, I did have some interviews, I never felt right about them so I just stayed where I was like the devil. I just liked the idea that there was a resource out there that provided videos, and although I haven't watched as many as I should, but I like the fact that you have panels with people talking about more in depth different types of legal careers that people can explore.

One thing that I've enjoyed and I've only gotten to do a few of these so far is the group calls. I think the group Collaborative calls are really amazing. I didn't expect much from my first one but there was just some things, you're surrounded by really smart people. Everybody in the Collaborative is an attorney, most of them are very hard-working people who are more seasoned in their career. Some of them are newer but they have good insights. That's what I was drawn to. It's just this idea of having a support network and also resources.

Sarah Cottrell: Yes. You're definitely not alone in saying that the calls are one of your favorite parts. That's what a lot of people say. I’d love if you could just describe a little bit more for people who are thinking about it and curious, how the calls work and what it was that you found to be particularly helpful about them.

Collab Member: Well, this is something that you talk about a lot on the podcast but when you're an attorney and you're ingrained in work, it's all you do, and you're surrounded by lawyers all day who are in it, people complain about their jobs but you don't really talk about wanting to not be a lawyer anymore. There is this sense that you're alone and you feel really lost. Having other people, seeing their faces, and being able to say things and have them say the same things that they're going through, there really is a lot to say about a community to keep you moving forward to make you realize that your feelings are real.

I like to say that I gaslit myself for my entire career. I think when you hear other people describing the exact same feelings that you're going through and some of them have actually moved forward, made steps to leave wherever they are, and to get to where they want to be, it's encouraging and it's also just reaffirming. You don't feel so lost and depressed about your decision. It's less scary to have others who are in the same boat as you and are doing something about it, not just like, “We're scared. We don't know what we're doing,” but actually people who are like, “No, it's encouraging. It's great. It's cathartic. It's like a group therapy/constructive advice.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. I love that so much. Oh my goodness, it makes me so happy. One of the reasons that I wanted to share the experiences of some people who are in the Collaborative is that I think as lawyers, we are inherently skeptical. I completely understand it. I definitely have lawyers who reach out to me and I can tell from the tone of what they're saying, it's like, “Is this real? Are there really people in here? Is it really helpful?” all of those those lawyerly questions, the skepticism.

Can you talk a little bit too, like someone who maybe is thinking about joining and is having some of those questions or just wondering like “Is this really for me?” what would you say to them?

Collab Member: Well, basically you can hire a coach and it'll cost a lot more money or you can start with something like the Collaborative which I think, in terms of value, it’s a great value and I think that there are people on there, we are busy people so it may not be that you're on it every day or even every week but I can tell you that even from the first post that I posted, people were responding within minutes. It's real and it's there. It's what you make of it.

There's an aspect of vulnerability that a lot of lawyers I don't think like to show, but it's anonymous. The people on there are in the same boat as you. No one's going to out you that you're looking for something else. Like I said, some people may not be able to go on every week but there are always people there it seems like. You get notifications so when somebody does post something, you see that. I usually go in and see what people have written to lend my support. There are group calls, am I wrong that they're every week?

Sarah Cottrell: We typically have one or two of the calls where it's actually all of us on Zoom and like a normal Zoom meeting every month and then there are typically one or two, sometimes three workshops or panels, something like that every month.

Collab Member: Yeah, I feel like there's something all the time because I'm getting emails all the time. No, and that’s a good thing. It's real. I don't think this is something people should do on their own, I really don't. I think that I'm so guilty of the lawyer brain of “Let me read everything on the internet. Let me buy a million books and I'm going to figure it out myself.” I don't think this is something that people should do on their own.

I don't think that even if you have a spouse that's a lawyer who's going through the same thing, there's this whole community out there of people, people like you, Sarah, and other people that you provide resources to, financial people that can help you if you are scared about the money aspect, like “What if I have to take a pay cut?” I just think it's silly to try to figure it out on your own when you can have this whole community of people who will give you advice, objective advice, not “I'm your family member and I'm going to tell you what you should or shouldn't do.”

Because oftentimes, I think with my family in particular, I couldn't even tell my father what I'm doing right now because that's what I did for so many years. I would talk to my parents about, “Oh, I'm so unhappy. I don't want to be a lawyer anymore,” and it would just be like, “No, no, no, you'll become a partner, everything will be better,” and it didn’t.

Sarah Cottrell: “That's just a job. That’s just how jobs are.”

Collab Member: Yeah, exactly. Like I said I gaslit myself for so long and I think it's super important to have a community of like-minded individuals that will keep you grounded in your journey and not go, “Okay, this is actually not as bad as I thought. I should just stay at my job. The money's great. I have this, I have that.” You can talk yourself out of it so easily. I think having accountability and having a Collaborative, I've talked to many people that know that I'm going through this journey about how important this group is to me.

Sarah Cottrell: I love that so much. I just wanted to highlight for people who are listening how we were talking about like how many calls are there, I think it's important for people to know that if they look at the information about “This is how many calls we have and this is how many workshops we have,” it's not like you have to come to every single one every month, and if you don't, then you're not getting the value. You can definitely pick and choose if you're in a period where things are really busy at work which basically happens to everyone, of course, lawyers.

It's not like if you just like drop out for some period of time or you're only picking and choosing the things that are really going to be helpful for you that you're not going to be helped by it. The goal is for it to be something where people can say, “Oh, that workshop, that's going to be helpful to me,” or “Oh, yeah, I have time and I have questions that I'm going to go to this call.” Essentially not having people feel like “You need to do everything in order for this to work for you,” it's like you have the structure available and you have the information, and then at the same time it's able to flex to fit what you're doing, and it sounds like that's been your experience.

Collab Member: Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, when I said that, “Oh, there's more of those panels that I should attend, the beautiful thing is that you always send out the link saying, “This is the panel recording. So if you miss it, you can watch it.” I'm hoping for a rainy day so that I can sit inside and binge some of these panels that I've been wanting to watch but that's what's great is like if you're not at that stage where you want to hear about other careers, you can just do the basics that you have to get through like I did that five-day workshop, that was one of the first things that I did and you just do it at your own pace.

It's not a competition. It's not a job either. It's for you so don't treat it like you treat everything else as an attorney. It's for you, it's for your self-development. I'm basically just telling myself this because I was guilty of feeling bad about not being able to attend everything, but don't, your journey is at your pace.

Sarah Cottrell: I love that so much. Okay, is there anything else that you would like to share either about your experience or just anything that you think someone who's considering joining the Collaborative should know or needs to hear?

Collab Member: I think that I pretty much covered just the bases. If you’re on the fence, just do it. In terms of, like I said, value, when you're considering maybe even leaving a high-paying job and know that you need to save, the idea of getting a career coach can be very daunting in terms of price, and this is like you're not just getting the career-coach type training that you would go through but you're also getting an entire group of other attorneys who are going through it with you.

There's something to really be said. I'm a pretty introverted person so I love the fact that this is all via Zoom and things like that so you get to see people without having to get out of your pajamas or whatever you've been wearing during your work-pandemic life and be part of something without even leaving your office or living room at home.

Sarah Cottrell: I love that so much. Thank you so much for sharing. I really, really appreciate it. I know that it's going to be helpful for people just to hear a little bit more about what the experience has been.

Collab Member: Thank you, Sarah. Like I said, if it wasn't for that angry Google search about four or five months ago, I would have just been droning along not knowing what to do so thank you for all the stuff that you put together for everybody.

Sarah Cottrell: I love that so much. Thank you.

Thank you so much for listening today. If these stories are making you go, “I think the Collab is something that would be a good fit for me or would be helpful for me,” we would love to have you join us. You can go to formerlawyer.com/collab and see all the information and the enrollment information. You can enroll there and join us in the Collab today. I'll see you there and I hope you have a great week.