Sarah Cottrell: Hi, and welcome to The Former Lawyer Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Cottrell. I practiced law for 10 years and now I help unhappy lawyers ditch their soul-sucking jobs. On this show, I share advice and strategies for aspiring former lawyers, and interviews with former lawyers who have left the law behind to find careers and lives that they love.

One of the things that I've noticed in my work is that there are many, many, many, many lawyers who either grew up in or have had a relationship in the past with a narcissist, and of course, I know that narcissism is a very trendy buzzword these days but it also is I think trending in part because there is just a lot more awareness and understanding of narcissism, what it is, how it works, etc.

I wanted to have someone come on the podcast to talk with me about this phenomenon and in particular to talk about some of the things that might characterize an experience of either being raised by a narcissist in a narcissistic family or having a relationship with a narcissist, romantic or otherwise, and how that might set people up for a later experience of being put in another narcissistic system, in particular, law firms and large law firms, which in my opinion, many of them are both narcissistic systems and also overrun by narcissists.

My friend and client Kelcey Baker who shared her story last week has an interest in this as well. I asked her to come back on the podcast to talk about it so this is my conversation with Kelcey about narcissistic relationships, narcissistic systems, and what we think you as a lawyer need to know and keep an eye out for in your own life.

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So Kelcey is back on the podcast to talk about something that she and I have talked about a lot that I've been talking about on the podcast more recently and that I think is really helpful for understanding so much of the experience of being a lawyer, and that is the role that narcissism plays in the legal profession, both in terms of individuals with narcissistic traits being drawn to the profession and also a lot of our institutions, in particular law firms, in particular large law firms actually being narcissistic systems.

We wanted to talk a little bit about what this means, how we've experienced this, and maybe just what you need to know about what it is like to work with narcissists or in a narcissistic system and why you as a lawyer might have been drawn into that. That's what we're going to do today. Kelcey, do you have anything to add about your goals for this conversation?

Kelcey Baker: Hi, Sarah. I think those are pretty good goals and then also I would plug some of the episodes that Sarah has thoughtfully put together in the past that I think are maybe good primers for this conversation. The Signs Of Malignant Narcissism In The Legal Profession, she did a really great episode on that, How To Handle Bullying In Law Firms, The No Assholes Rule and Why It's A Joke, Lawyers, Your Job Shouldn't Make You Cry, What Burned Out Lawyers Need To Know. I would go back and listen to all but any of those episodes, to just start to get some context I think of our conversation today.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. I think also if you listen to the episode where Kelcey and I talked through her story, one of the things that she was describing is this cognitive dissonance of having the experience of being in a law firm where there's this lip service paid to this place is great, this is the best type of place to work, there's a lot of internal PR about how anyone who does anything else is not working at the same level and that reinforces this idea that you've reached the pinnacle of the profession, that there's something special about you as a group that isn't true about all people or all lawyers and yet in an environment where that's toxic, it feels really bad and so you have this messaging that is very incongruent with how the environment makes you feel.

We can talk more about why this is but for many lawyers, in an environment like that, instead of saying, “These things are incongruent. They're saying this thing and it's not accurate,” instead, a lot of lawyers turn in and say, “Oh, I am not experiencing this the way that I ‘should,’ there must be something wrong with me.”

I know that part of what Kelcey and I want to talk about today is why lawyers might be more prone to do that than say the average person. Kelcey, do you relate to that cognitive dissonance experience?

Kelcey Baker: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think your point about law firms, especially Biglaw having this internal PR is so true. I'm a true crime podcast junkie and I certainly like listening to podcasts about cults, and let me tell you, every time I listen to an episode about a cult, I'm like, “Oh, no, this is a Biglaw firm. It's not a cult.” It is a cult, all cults.

There really is this push of “Everything's fine. Everything's great. We're the Pinnacle of success. You should be lucky to work here and nothing is ever wrong in the magical land of Biglaw.” When people push back on that, then there can be some potential consequences because as we'll talk about in a little bit, I do think it's a narcissistic system.

I just want to put out a preface that I am not a mental health counselor, I am not a mental health professional. I am an aspiring former lawyer who has encountered, personally, anecdotally many narcissistic systems. I enjoy speaking to that with others so that maybe they have the same vocabulary and words to put to what they might also be experiencing.

Sarah Cottrell: Yes, cosign. Well, I think that leads to something that I wanted us to talk through today that I think is really important for people to hear, which is I've observed that many lawyers have had an experience with a narcissist at some point in their past prior to coming into the profession.

The reason that matters and the reason that pattern has stuck out to me is that, so okay, let's do a little sidebar, also not an expert, not a mental health expert, not an expert on narcissism, however, I have learned a lot about it over the years and one of the things that I have learned is that if you're someone who has experience with a narcissist, whether we're talking about in your family of origin or in some other relationship, those experiences tend to prime you to see narcissistic behavior as more normal in the future.

The reason why I think this is relevant is that because of that, because many lawyers have had the experience of interacting with, being in a relationship with, having narcissism in their family of origin in some way, when they come into something like a law firm that is structured in a very narcissistic way that has a lot of narcissists in significant positions of power, even though that environment feels really bad and is really toxic, instead of saying, “This system is not good and there's a problem here,” they are already conditioned to, like what I was talking about earlier, turn in and say, “Oh, I must be the problem.”

In a weird way, having a previous experience with a narcissist or in a narcissistic system, if you grew up in a family that was a narcissistic system, it makes future narcissistic systems feel normal even if they feel bad because they feel familiar.

I think this explains why a lot of lawyers end up in, in particular, large law firms that are very toxic. On the one hand, they know that it's bad. They have that internal sense of “Something is off” but they are already conditioned, when they experience that cognitive dissonance, to be like, “Oh, whatever has been said externally must be the real thing, and how I feel must be the wrong thing.” What are your thoughts about that, Kelcey?

Kelcey Baker: Yeah. I think you said it really well and I think you put it into really, really similar terms that I was going to use, which is that I think you're more primed to feel, to expect, and to normalize those types of behaviors with your employer because it seems familiar to what you might have experienced in other relationships that are more interpersonal, whether it's familial, romantic, whatever it might be so it's harder to initially identify any red flags.

Not only does it seem more normal, like you said, Sarah, but I would also add that there's this double-edged sword where you're also more sensitive to or also more triggered by those kinds of behaviors and systems. It's not that it makes you more resistant to feeling the effects of those behaviors, I think it's that you actually are more sensitive to feeling the effects of those behaviors because it feels like you're stuck in this horribly familiar cycle of being blamed, manipulated, gaslit, heavily criticized, bullied, abused, whatever the word might be.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah, and in a very unfortunate way, you are also better suited than someone who has not had the experience of being in a relationship with a narcissist. In certain ways, you are better suited to, I don't want to say thrive because it's not thriving, but to function in the system and have a sense of what the unspoken rules are, to have this sense of “Oh, I know that even though X or Y is how something's being described, actually the way we function is this other way. That feels normal to me. I'm going to just slot into my role in that system and chug along.”

You're less likely to have an oppositional reaction of “This seems wrong. This doesn't feel right,” because in a sense it does, it does feel right. Narcissism is, I know, something that is getting talked about all the time and there are some people who are like, “Everyone's a narcissist now,” blah-blah-blah, whatever, and well, that's just, okay, fine, people can feel that way.

But I just want to say a couple of things about the way narcissism works, and in particular, the way that covert narcissism works because there are for sure Biglaw partners who are malignant narcissists 100%, definitely, but there are also a lot of partners in law firms who are covert narcissists and there are also a lot of lawyers who their previous experience of narcissism may have been with someone who was a covert narcissist and they may not even be aware that the dynamic that was driving their relationship with that person or that family member was narcissism.

Kelcey, do you want to talk a little bit about the experience of covert narcissism or do you want me to try to talk about that a bit? Because I think that might be helpful for people.

Kelcey Baker: Yeah. I think covert narcissism, like you said, there probably are some malignant narcissists. I don't think that they're more numerous, we’ll say, than covert narcissists. I think for most people who have experienced these kinds of systems, it's more likely to be covert narcissism, which really, it's certainly not an all-inclusive definition but it's probably going to especially include people who just have a diminished ability to be able to empathize with others and an extreme attention on image being everything, that they need to be seen as meeting their feelings of their self-importance.

They can't handle criticism. There are a lot of control issues that are in that often, and because of that, the way that they control others and manipulate others is through blaming and a lack of boundaries and just messaging to others that they're not good enough.

If you're listening to this and thinking, “That sounds like a Biglaw partner, a parent,” or whoever, it might be. I think not a ton of people get any formal diagnosis. These are really just traits that others have and portray but it doesn't mean that people aren't affected by them.

In terms of an actual system, it usually means that there is a covert narcissist who is able to maintain power and control over others within that system by showing and executing these kinds of traits.

In terms of what others might experience before they get to the legal profession, outside of the legal profession, a lot of that can just be either a family member or a romantic partner who does have these kinds of traits. You're made to feel like you're not good enough. They establish the rules of the system and you have to adhere to those rules of the system.

Even if they change the rules of the system, you're still stuck having to adhere to those rules. Because there's a lack of empathy, I think that is what makes it so difficult, like Sarah said, to be able to thrive.

But if you're used to being manipulated, having to deal with these kinds of changing rules and goals, having to avoid excessive bullying, really, really harsh criticism, or being made to feel like you're a failure, you start to learn how to interact and either work your way around, avoid, placate these types of individuals.

So then when you are in the legal profession, you think, “Oh, well, it's kind of the same deal here. I'm receiving what is being called feedback even though it really feels like I'm being bullied because this is not constructive criticism. I'm just being told that I'm a failure as a lawyer and as a person,” which is not the same thing as constructive criticism or helpful feedback to help you improve upon a task you're performing but it will still feel very familiar because maybe you've experienced that with a parent or maybe you've experienced that with a former romantic partner.

To Sarah's point, I think not being good enough and what makes you feel like you can handle it is because you turn the blame on yourself. You feel like you deserve that kind of criticism, bullying, or treatment because you have been primed in a different narcissistic system to feel like it's your fault. You're the one who deserves this because you've messed up or you've fallen short in some way.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. I'm looking at this article on Psychology Today which talks about the dynamics of narcissistic homes. In particular, if you're someone who grew up with a parent who was a narcissist or had narcissistic tendencies, especially if they were a covert narcissist, externally, you could have had a family that looks very, not just normal, you often may have had a family that was like, “Wow, they really have it together.”

You may even have had the experience as a child in that family of believing, “Wow, we really have it together.” In fact, one of the beliefs about the family that is often perpetuated in a narcissistic family system is “We’re really great. We're actually maybe even a little bit better than other people,” we wouldn't say that but that sense is cultivated.

I just want to read off a couple of things from this article of other dynamics that are part of a narcissistic family system, in particular, if you have a narcissistic parent. One, there's often a scapegoat. There's like one person in the family system who is often blamed for the problems, whatever problems there might be, and often problems are just like if that's the person who maybe points out that something is not right here, that person is often turned into a scapegoat.

I know in the law firm setting, this is so common that you see. Anyone who points out, “Hey, why are we doing this?” or “Hey, this seems wrong,” they are necessarily treated as “Oh, this person doesn't really get it. This person isn't really cut out for this environment,” whatever, the scapegoating of anyone who suggests, or even by their action indicates that the system is not all that the system wants itself to be, it's very distinct.

The other things that I think are really interesting that are true about narcissistic families and you can also see parallels I think with large law firms is one is if you grew up in a narcissistic family system, then acceptance was conditional. That means that you have to comply with the family narrative and the value system in order to be accepted.

If you're someone who grew up in a system like this, you might not even think of this as being true because you internalize this reality at such a young age that you know on some level that if you express difference, you will be rejected by the system so you don't. As a result, you're like, “Oh, no, acceptance isn't conditional,” but you can see that you've never really tested that theory.

In the same way, I think every job has rules, best practices, etc. I'm not saying a normal workplace has no structure or has no rules but very much in a large law firm, it goes beyond just, “Hey, we have best practices,” and there are all of these ways that you can be rejected, essentially, if you express a difference in too strong of a way, I don't know, Kelcey, is that something that you have observed?

Kelcey Baker: Oh, yeah, absolutely. What you were saying a little bit in terms of the familial structure, and I think particularly in regards to the covert part of covert narcissism, is that this isn't said that this is an explicit rule of the system, that the conditionality of acceptance is not always blatantly noted but it's heavily implied. You will feel the effects if you tow that line.

I am certainly open with the fact that I had grown up with a very narcissistic parent and have certainly experienced a narcissistic system for myself where acceptance was absolutely conditional even if it was never explicitly said if you were to publicly question the reality of the success of the family because again, image is everything to a narcissist, and to question their image to question what they have put out as their personal or systemic PR of the family or of the system, then you are deemed to be problematic.

You are a threat to their image. It needs to be quashed. Maybe that means that you're going to get rejected and you're going to get either cast out, not included, or blamed in some way, or it just means that you are going to have others turned against you.

Where that translates to a law firm is really similar, that like we said before, there can be this internal PR, especially in Biglaw about how successful the firm, the practice, or the group or the team is and if you question the method, question the success, or question the efficiency or profitability of anything that they're doing, especially once you get into questioning some more sensitive things like the ethics of what they might be doing as lawyers, the interpretations of the law, or if it's really true advocacy for clients and then you start questioning that, just the act of questioning can be seen as “You're not towing the party line correctly. Therefore, you're not going to be included. You're not going to be given the opportunities by the partners to meet your billable goals, to ever be put up for partner, or to be introduced to the other partners of the firm that you need to be able to meet to further your career. You're not going to be asked to co-author articles or attend conferences.”

There are a lot of ways in a law firm that you can reap the consequences of questioning the system or threatening the image of what is being put in place.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. To this point about conditionality, I think there are such clear parallels between a narcissistic family system and some of the lack of congruence we've talked about in terms of messaging in a law firm. If you grew up in a narcissistic family system, which basically just means one or both of your parents were narcissists, in many cases, especially if the person was a covert narcissist, you have probably been told, you probably were taught “We love you unconditionally.”

Because a covert narcissist knows what they are supposed to be doing to look like a good parent. That is part of what creates so much disconnect for children raised in the system because you are being told you are loved unconditionally, you are accepted unconditionally but your experience is that some part of you knows that I cannot deviate from the norms, whatever the norms are that are set by the system or by the narcissistic figure because if I do, I won't be accepted but you're being told that it's unconditional.

This is very similar to the experience people have in Biglaw where there's a lot of lip service paid to “We value everyone,” and I could go on a whole separate thing about Biglaw firm's attempts to value diversity. Essentially, this idea of, in a certain way, “We accept you unconditionally,” but some part of you knows that's not actually true.

It's being said but some part of you knows, “That is not actually accurate to my experience.” Especially, if you've been raised in a narcissistic family, you already have experienced being taught one thing and disregarding your internal sense that something else is true so when you move into a system a law firm where that same dynamic is happening, yes, you feel that lack of continuity between what's being said and what you feel but you've already been trained to be like, “Well, what I feel doesn't matter,” or “What I feel is somehow wrong because what's true is what I'm being told.”

I think it's a huge part of why there's so much confusion and internal struggle for lawyers in these systems, especially if they're someone who has had experience with a narcissistic system previously because they've already been trained to disregard their own internal intuition about what is real in the situation.

Kelcey Baker: Exactly, yeah. To what you had said, Sarah, the reason why when you're in a firm and you're being told something and you get this gut feeling that it's not true, it's because it's familiar. You're in a familiar system where you're being told something that you know is probably not true.

I think in the same way that maybe in a familial system, you know you probably wouldn't question the way that certain things are done with your parent or your family. You also know innately, in a narcissistic system of a Biglaw firm in particular, that you're not going to openly question how things are done because you already know it's not going to be taken well.

Even when they say, “We are open to suggestions. We are constantly trying to improve ourselves. We welcome all thoughts from the team,” and then you don't speak up because you already know, based on other life experiences that you've had, that they don't really mean that. They don't really want you to give them suggestions of how to change what they're doing, how to improve their process, or to question their judgment on something. In fact, there's almost a sense of fear because you know that it's conditional that there might even be repercussions just from questioning.

Sarah Cottrell: Right, because when you do that, you expose the reality that that's not actually true, that they aren't actually open to feedback in the way that they're saying. The mere fact of doing the thing they're saying is okay exposes that it is in fact not okay because the response is not going to be the response that would happen if that was actually an accurate description of the environment.

I will say, I think if you're someone who has experienced a narcissistic relationship previously of any variety, familial, romantic, etc, it makes it even harder to recognize when you are in a system that is actually unhealthy to the extent that many of these law firms are unhealthy because, to your point, Kelcey, it mimics your previous experience.

I think it's one of the many reasons why for many lawyers, it takes a long time to recognize, “Oh, no, this is not good for me and I should get out,” because operating in a system that isn't good for you has been normalized. I know we've talked about this on the podcast before, multiple guests have mentioned that it's sort of being in an abusive relationship, and I know, Kelcey, you had this experience of your therapist making an observation about that so I would love for you to share what that was.

Kelcey Baker: Yeah. When I was really considering leaving my Biglaw job, of course, grappling with all of the things that one grapples with to leave a high-paying, high-achieving job, especially as a lawyer, I was going back and forth and back and forth with my therapist and I said, “I don't know if I can quit my job.”

She stopped me and said, “You're not quitting a job, you're leaving an abusive relationship so I need you to stop saying you're quitting a job because if this was an interpersonal relationship, if you were being treated in this way by a person instead of your employer, by a partner or a family member, it would be easier for you to identify this as an abusive relationship.”

That was like I got punched in the gut because I was like, “Oh, my God, she's right.” If I had a friend who was telling me that their boyfriend was saying these things that my law firm partner was saying to me, I'd be like, “Girl, you need to get out of that relationship.”

I was not able to see it for myself because it was an employer and it wasn't a bad boyfriend but it is still a relationship and it is still a narcissistic system. I think, as you said, it can be really difficult to recognize that because one, it's already normalized and two, we think, “Well, no, it's not a relationship, this is my job,” when in fact, they're able to have a narcissistic system in place because it is in fact a relationship. That's why they're able to be abusive to you in a similar sense.

Sarah Cottrell: Yes. I think another piece of understanding the dynamic of a narcissistic family system that can be helpful in understanding law firms is in most narcissistic family systems, you have a narcissist and then you have an enabler, so often, you'll have one parent who is the narcissist and the other parent who is an enabler. You might also have two narcissistic parents or some other combination of things. The enabler could be someone else.

There are various configurations in terms of how it can be put together. But knowing that many law firms are narcissistic systems can be helpful because sometimes, you're experiencing, especially if you're experiencing working for an individual narcissist as opposed to just the entire law firm system being narcissistic, it can be very confusing when there are other people who seem to be in positions where they could do something about it and they don't.

I think if you're in a position where you have had that experience or where you're currently having that experience, understanding the dynamic of the narcissistic family system and the role the enabler plays is very helpful. Because the reality is that there are people within the system, within the law firm system who benefit from the system being constructed the way that it is, and even if they are not themselves narcissists, they are willing to enable the continuation of a system that has narcissistic traits because of the fact that they benefit from it.

Kelcey Baker: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's an important point is that I don't think that it really gets talked about in terms of an employer dynamic but I think that understanding the familial structure, it's pretty easy to transfer on a one-to-one, if you look at you have the narcissist, as you said, you have the enabler, we have the scapegoat, and then in a lot of familial systems, there's the golden child, which is the opposite of the scapegoat, the narcissist decides to favor or give a lot of praise to one member of the family, hold them up as this shining example, and usually, it's because they're a lot easier to manipulate and they don't question the system or the rules, and in turn, the scapegoat gets compared.

In a lot of articles, textbooks, and studies, that's the stereotypical familial structure system. But when you apply that to a law firm in just a hypothetical situation, you have a narcissistic partner, let's say if we're talking about individuals here, then you have an enabler.

Maybe that's other law firm partners, maybe that's HR, maybe that's the system itself is enabling this kind of behavior, you have the golden child, which maybe this is the associate who’s the law firm partner’s right-hand person, the one that always gets put on the good projects or gets away with bad behavior but is still held up as a shining example of what everybody else should be aspiring to, and then you have the scapegoat, which maybe that's the associate who says, “I don't think we should be doing things this way,” “Why is this being put into place?” “Maybe we could do it this way,” “I don't understand this.”

You can really apply the familial structure pretty consistently to some of these law firm dynamics. Not every single firm is going to have the same dynamic, obviously, and like you said, Sarah, sometimes it's individuals, sometimes it's more of just a systemic feel to it, but I do think that understanding the structure and the roles that have been seen over and over and over again in these familial structures, it does translate I think to law firm structures, and in particular, Biglaw.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. I think if you see some of these dynamics, which can be inherently confusing, especially if we're talking about a golden child dynamic where there's someone who's always held up as the person even though you're like, “This person doesn't actually seem that great. What's going on?” understanding these dynamics can really help you see what's actually going on.

Not to say that it's rational because there's a certain irrationalness to a narcissistic system but at the same time, if you understand the rules that apply in narcissistic systems, it gives you more insight into why things function the way that they do because they are following the rules of a narcissistic system.

Kelcey Baker: Exactly, exactly. The rules are what establish the status of people, not the merit.

Sarah Cottrell: Yes, yes, which I'm sure many people are like, “Relatable.”

Kelcey Baker: When you're like, “Wait, this is not a merit-based system,” no, it's not.

Sarah Cottrell: Interesting, oh. In a shocking turn of events in a narcissistic system, the people who are most mirror-y are the ones who are going to be elevated. By that I mean when you're talking about a narcissist or a narcissistic system, whatever reflects back to that narcissist, what that narcissist wants to see will be elevated and anything that does not do that will not, will be punished.

Kelcey Baker: And will be punished, exactly, not just be ignored but many times will be punished in some way.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. We have just scratched the surface of so much, so many parallels that you can see between a relationship with a narcissistic family system versus a law firm but, Kelcey, is there any last thing that you think people should know, think about, or hear about this topic?

Kelcey Baker: I think that it's important to remember, especially if you're in a Biglaw environment, and if you are in a narcissistic system like this, that your humanness is just not recognized, appreciated, or validated in a narcissistic system. You're not really given agency as a person with feelings because narcissists can't readily empathize with others.

Like Sarah had touched on, there isn't a ton of rationality to it because you think, “Well, I would never treat somebody this way,” it's because you have empathy and you're probably not a narcissist so it's hard to understand why this kind of behavior exists in this type of system but it's because you're a human, and again, humanness is just not recognized in that system.

I would just say that remember that it is a relationship. Whether we've been in a narcissistic system already or not, I think that generally, lawyers are primed to just take the bad behavior that we're given and just accept it as part of the industry, paying our dues, or “Well, we're all high achievers so there's going to be a strong personality,” it gets waved off a lot.

But I would just say maybe take some of these things that you might be experiencing or hearing about, maybe it's your friend who's experiencing it, a colleague, or somebody and take it out of the employer-employee relationship for a second and put it in the context of “What if this was a family member doing this or what if this was your spouse, a boyfriend, or girlfriend doing this to you or to your friend, would it still seem as acceptable?”

Then I would just say think about if it's acceptable in an employer-employee relationship, think about if it's really acceptable for individuals to be treated in that way in a law firm environment.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. This is just to amplify your point, Kelcey, to a narcissist, you're not a human being, you are an object. In a narcissistic system, you are not a human being, you are a prop. If you feel like you're being treated like an object or a prop and not a human, then that's a reasonable way to feel because in a narcissistic system or interacting with a narcissist, that is who or what you are to them.

This is why I really think it's important for lawyers to know about the dynamics of these systems because I just think it's so common in our industry that people will either end up working with or for narcissists or in a system that is inherently narcissistic.

I really appreciate you joining me today, Kelcey, to talk about this because I really want to talk about this more because I just see this happening over and over. Thank you. I really appreciate you sharing your experience and also your thoughts about this because I know you, like me, have lots of thoughts about this.

Kelcey Baker: Of course, yeah. Thank you for having me on to speak with you about this. Apologies to everybody who was taking a shot every time we said narcissist. I agree, I also have lots of thoughts on this.

Sarah Cottrell: Yeah. Okay, well, thank you for joining us for this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast. I will talk to you next week.

Thanks so much for listening. If you are thinking about leaving the law but aren't sure where to start, make sure that you download my free guide: First Steps to Leaving the Law at formerlawyer.com/first. Have a great week.