How a Misalignment of Values and Career Helped a Lawyer Become a Therapist with David Sazant [TFLP246]

On this week’s podcast, Sarah chats with David Sazant, a former litigator who now works as a therapist. He’s based in Canada and specializes in working with men who struggle to feel aligned with their work. He offers an excellent perspective for anyone considering a career in therapy, and it’s a great conversation about value systems and how to determine their fit in life’s decisions. Let’s start back at the beginning. 

David’s Journey to Litigation

Like many former lawyers interviewed on the podcast, David didn’t have the stereotypical journey into law. Growing up, he wanted to be a cardiologist. There was an expectation in his household that more education was always better. But eventually, he realized that he hated science outside of biology, which quickly put medical school out of the running.

David finished his undergraduate studies in 2008 with a degree in Psychology and became interested in pursuing his love for acting. He began trying to make it as an actor while working in bars and restaurants and living with his parents. After giving it a try for a few years, it was time for him to devise a different plan. He considered getting an MBA but eventually settled on law school. 

There wasn’t much David knew about being a lawyer before starting law school. He just knew that additional education would help him be more successful. Once there, he bounced back and forth between two mentalities. First, he felt unfamiliar with the subject matter and had imposter syndrome. Second, if he could just study enough, the material would bake into his system.

Even after graduating from law school, David still dealt with imposter syndrome. He always felt like it wasn’t a set of skills that came naturally to him. At the same time, a part of him thought he just needed to stick it out, and eventually, the efforts would pay off, and he would change. Many lawyers have a mind-over-matter mentality where they believe the grind will ultimately pay off. 

David was practicing insurance defense litigation and learning the ropes. Even though he started to feel more confident in his abilities, he realized that the work didn’t align with his values. He moved to construction and commercial litigation, but nothing really changed. He wondered if the problem was litigation and if he should transition to contracts or some transactional law. In the end, he hired a career coach who works with lawyers, and by the end of the first session, he knew he wanted to switch to mental health work.

The Catalyst Was A Misalignment in Values and Work

The biggest issue for David was the mismatch in values. He values authenticity when connecting with other people and fostering a sense of warmth and safety. In litigation, the opportunities to do that were rare. He could connect with clients during the mediation stage, so he kept looking for opportunities to participate in mediation. During the other parts of the process, the actions went against his values, which was challenging.

David’s work was making someone’s life more difficult. He was either chasing something on behalf of a client that would be detrimental to someone else or preventing someone from getting what they wanted. By continuing to be incongruent with his value system, he was going to develop more anxiety and possible depression, and his self-esteem would go down. He was beginning to feel that already.

David’s Transition from Law to Therapy

The transition David made into therapy began during his meeting with the career counselor. One of the first questions he answered was describing a weekday working his ideal job. He found himself able to respond with such specificity. He had never sat down to brainstorm, but the desire was always there. This helped him realize that he needed to take this seriously.

During David’s sessions with the counselor, he was also lucky enough to have a partner who was extremely supportive and encouraged him to make the changes he needed to be content. She was understanding if there was a step back financially because he’d be more fulfilled in the long run. 

David started researching different programs and decided to go back to school in 2021. This round of grad school was different from law school. It was virtual, so he didn’t need to relocate. It was tough because he didn’t get to know his classmates at the same level, but the schedule was flexible and more relaxed. 

Once his master’s program was completed, David went to work for a sizable clinic. Even though he didn’t control his calendar, most clients were men between 20 and 60. He noticed many common themes and challenges. This helped him figure out what kind of practice he wanted to open himself—a men’s therapy practice. David opened his practice in early August. He enjoys helping professionals figure out their next step and how it relates to their value systems. 

Therapy Can Unlock a New Way of Thinking

Many of us were not encouraged to think about value work growing up. We hear a lot about what is important in society, but we know little about authenticity and what gives us meaning. For many reasons, it can be scary to choose ways of life that align with our values. It takes some work to figure out how to overcome those hurdles and live a life that will bring you a sense of purpose and meaning.

Working with a therapist can be extremely helpful when examining your values and how to live a life that aligns with them. Therapists can ask questions to uncover the obstacles each person has and help determine if your values conflict with things you were taught and conditioned to believe. 

Sometimes, we face a fork in the road where we have a choice that will bring us closer to our values, but we make the opposite decision. We do this because it feels safer, but in the long run, it does not help our self-esteem. We satisfy a short-term urge without examining the long-term effects. Therapy can be an impactful tool to understand your sense of safety. 

Final Thoughts and Advice

When David works with clients, there are three types of destinations to work toward at any given time. The first is about values and being committed to living in line with them. The second is doing as much as possible to live in the present moment. The third is unhooking from painful thoughts and feelings so that you can behave in line with your values. Each therapist has their approach, but that’s what he does with his clients. 

You can contact David on LinkedIn or his website. The practice is also on Instagram at pursuit.therapy. If you’re thinking about leaving the law, join the Former Lawyer Collab.

Hi, and welcome to The Former Lawyer Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Cottrell. I practiced law for 10 years and now I help unhappy lawyers ditch their soul-sucking jobs. On this show, I share advice and strategies for aspiring former lawyers, and interviews with former lawyers who have left the law behind to find careers and lives that they love.

Okay, today I want to talk about something that is just a ridiculous fiction that I think is perpetrated and permeates so many law firms and it's around the question of billables and getting work.

Here's the thing first. You know that we've talked in the podcast before about my view about billables, which is that it is so frequently used as a criticism of associates. Like, “Oh, you're billables. You're not getting enough billables, blah, blah, blah.”

The reality is that in 95% of those scenarios, it is because the work isn't there and it is not actually an appropriate criticism of a more junior lawyer because they are not responsible for generating work.

Unless it's an extreme circumstance where someone is literally avoiding doing billable work, and that can actually be documented—which basically is never actually the case, except in very rare exceptions—the lack of billables is not something that should be treated as a failure on the part of an associate, or even like a more junior partner, depending on the circumstances, and yet it so often is.

That's the baseline. It is wild to me that you can have an environment where someone is not being given work and then is being faulted for not doing work. A corollary to that is this idea that you should be fixing the problem of not having billables by going out and getting work from people.

Here's why I say that. I just think it is so ridiculous that there's this idea of like, “Oh, well, you're not getting enough billable work.” Well, the fix for that is not for the people who are responsible for bringing in work to bring in more work. The fix for that is that you as the associate really need to be out there, knocking on doors, asking people for work, et cetera, et cetera.

I know that if you were an associate or ever were an associate, and you are listening to this podcast, you have had the experience of looking for work, emailing people that you need work, emailing your department head, and going around your office.

There's only so much that you can ask people for work. The fact that it is treated as like, “Oh, this is the associate's job” is additionally bananas, because we also know that partners, department heads, whoever is in charge of monitoring people's hours, depending on the way your firm does it, has access to the information about the billables that you have, and therefore should be able to direct more work to people who need the work.

There's this weird idea that the people in the position of being able to see who has work and who might need work are somehow helpless to remedy that situation. In fact, the remedy is supposed to come from you wandering around your floor of your office knocking on people's doors and/or just incessantly emailing people and asking them to give you work.

I just think it is a ridiculous form of gaslighting that creates so much anxiety understandably for junior lawyers because I have never met someone who is not hitting their hours, who is not also basically stressing about not hitting their hours and doing all of the things and running up against the limitation of you can only email people so many times. You can only walk around so many times.

It is so toxic to literally not have the work to give to people or to not be structuring the work in a way that allows you to give work to everyone who needs it. Let's do a little side detour.

The other problem that you often see in these scenarios where someone isn't hitting their billables and is being told, “You need to go out and whatever, get more work,” there's almost always a scenario where some of the associates are on matters where they are billing ridiculous numbers of hours and then there are other people who are not hitting their hours.

There are lots of different reasons for that around staffing and clients being willing to only have a certain number of people, like staff to a matter, et cetera, et cetera. But again, there is always this sense, I feel like, in law firms of, “Well, what could we possibly do about this scenario? There's nothing we can do.”

It's just like, “No, there are so many things that you could do.” Instead you are turning this into the problem of the least powerful lawyer in this scenario. The one who does not have control over a work allocation, the one who does not have the ability to see the distribution of work and do anything about it.

It never ceases to amaze me that the solution to someone having low billables is for that person to somehow go find more work when, by definition, they are not the ones who know what work is available.

It is definitely one of those things that I feel like is so common in how our industry is organized that no one really seems to ask why. In another type of environment, in another organization, in other jobs, the idea that the people who are more junior and don't have access to the information about all the various things that are going on, that those people would somehow also be responsible for figuring out how to get work, as opposed to the people who are more senior, who literally know what works needs to be done and are responsible for handing out the work.

I think it is hard to explain to someone who is not a lawyer how it is that the people who are responsible for handing out work, for assigning work, for bringing junior lawyers onto their cases, how those people are not the people who are also responsible for making sure that the work is distributed properly.

You basically have this scenario where the people who don't have visibility into that are also being told that they're responsible for making sure that it happens, which is just bananas because the reality is that the people who are actually handing out the work are the ones who are the gatekeepers of who gets the work and who gets the billables.

Okay, so yeah, at this point, I'm just belaboring the point because I just think it's so transparently ridiculous that the solution to someone having low billables is like, “You should wander around and knock on people's doors,” as opposed to the people who have work should be handing out work.

Of course, the problem there becomes the reality that if there is not work to hand out, then in fact, there are not billables available and it is not because an associate is failing at getting billables, it's because the work is not there.

But that requires a level of responsibility to be taken by senior lawyers and law firms that structurally have been allowed to defer on to other people and that is a problem for many reasons, many of which we've talked about on this podcast before.

So yeah, the fiction that you should be wandering around and finding work in a context where you're not the one who actually knows what work is available is one of the many, many things about law firms and toxic law firm environments that I think create really problematic and damaging environments because transparently, if you have the people with less power being treated as those other ones with more power, yeah, it's not good, it's not good.

Okay, That is what I have to say about billables and associates being told to find work and all the reasons why I find it to be ridiculous. Thanks so much for joining me this week. I will talk to you next week.

Are you sick of just thinking about it and ready to take action towards leaving the law? Join us in the Former Lawyer Collab. The Collab is my entry-level program for lawyers who are wanting to make a change and leave the law for another career. You can join us at formerlawyer.com/collab. Until next time, have a great week.